Hello, and welcome to Tisha Talks Switches. I'm Erez from ZSA, and with me here today is Tisha, our resident switch expert and support lead. How's it going, Tisha?

Hi. Uh, it's going well. How are you?

I'm good, I'm good.

Good.

I think, uh, we just, uh, heard before we starting recording, with us here today are also Tisha's neighbor's dogs, right?

[laughs] Yeah. The weather today is very warm, and so the neighbor's small dogs are outside. And they, uh, can be noisy for long periods of time. [laughs]

Yeah, so if you hear the dogs on today's podcast, hi neighbor dogs.

Yeah.

Uh, on today's not-a-podcast I should say, on today's episode really.

[laughs] Right.

So today we're gonna talk about reds, right?

Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Those are linear.

Yes, linear switches.

I think this is really our first linear episode, right? Because we've done Brown which is tactile. We've done Blue which is clicky.

Right.

So, now it's linear's turn.

Right, yeah. Um, so linear switches just, it means that there, there's no click, there's no tactile bump. When you press the switch down, it's smooth and it feels the same until you hit bottom.

Right. That sounds like a more boring typing experience- [laughs]

[laughs]

than, uh, than something, uh, certainly clicky but also tactile with that bump in the middle. Would you say linear switches are, I don't know, more monotonous to work with?

Depending on who you are, sure. There are a lot of people who prefer to have the tactile and/or auditory feedback from a clicky or a tactile switch. But there also are a lot of people who prefer that smooth typing feeling. It's closer to, you know, if you're accustomed to typing on your standard, regular old like, you know, the keyboard that came with the computer that you bought or, to a certain degree, the keyboard on your laptop, stuff like that. They don't really have anything but just down and up.

Right, right. Although when people ask about laptop keyboards, I always say, especially with linear switches... Linear switches, it's like all they've got is just travel.

Right.

You hit the switch and it keeps going down, down, down, down, down, down until it bottoms out way more so than a laptop keyboard, right?

Y- yeah, totally. So, that's, um, I guess that's why I said that's, it's not a super similar [laughs] experience but the similar part is that you've got just the up and down. Otherwise, they're not all that similar. Yeah, because the, the mechanical keyswitches are a lot deeper. You have a lot further to press before it stops.

Right, right. Okay, so I guess the other thing that maybe makes this episode different is that we're gonna talk about three different red switches-

Mm-hmm [affirmative].

but we really only offer one of those for the Moonlander and the ErgoDox EZ Glow and the Planck EZ Glow, right?

Right. Um, we have three red switches, one of which is RGB compatible, you know, meaning that it will let the light from the, uh, from the back lighting shine through. The other two are not.

At least the way we carry them now, right? I mean we might, you know, by the time you're listening to this, maybe we do have them. But for now we don't have them for RGB boards.

Right. The non-RGB switches are made by Cherry. And Cherry makes RGB versions of each of these. We don't carry them. And, an- and, you know, I'll talk about this more when we get to it. Um, one of them is I think pretty easy to find and one of them is a little less easy to find in the RGB version.

Mm-hmm [affirmative], mm-hmm [affirmative]. Well, let's talk about them then. So-

Okay, sure.

should we start with, with the granddaddy, with the Cherry MX Red?

Sure, yeah. And this, this is one that m-, probably a lot of people have heard of.

Mm-hmm [affirmative]

So far we've talked about, uh, Cherry MX Brown and Cherry MX Blue, so this is made by the same manufacturer. It's been around a long time. It is, um, I think... Well, uh, maybe this is just an assumption. [laughs] But I think when people think of, your default linear switch, probably a lot of people think of Cherry MX Red.

Mm-hmm [affirmative]. How do... You mean people who have tried MX Red before, or just the notion of a linear switch?

I think maybe just the notion of a linear switch. You mentioned that MX Red maybe is the granddaddy of the linear switches. And Cherry is kind of the granddaddy of the mechanical, keyswitch manufacturing world [laughs] I guess, you know. They're the big name, and this is their, this is their well-known linear switch.

Right. So then would you say, generally speaking, is this the, the "when in doubt" linear switch? Meaning like let's say I know I want linear, MX Red is kind of a safe bet if it's available for my keyboard?

Right. Yeah, I would say so. It's well known and popular and, [laughs] I guess for lack of a better, um, way to say it, there's nothing like weird or unusual about it. There's not r-, there aren't really any gotchas about it.

Mm-hmm [affirmative]. I don't know, I don't know. Like I'm actually, I think on linear switches right now, I'm typing on the Kailh Silver.

Mm-hmm [affirmative].

But the way we talk about these makes them sound so boring to me. Like, "Oh, there's nothing unusual about the MX Red. It-

[laughs]

it's just it goes down all the way and then it goes back up. And it's-

Right.

smooth." Like, uh, yeah, I gue-, I guess not all switches have to be exciting, right? I mean- [laughs]

[laughs] Yeah, that's true.

It's kind of a workhorse.

It is. It's not, I guess it's not exciting but it is, um, but a lot of people find them just very, you know, comfortable, um, easy to use for long periods of time. You're sitting there for eight or 10 hours just typing away intensively, um, these switches tend to be, uh, you know, pretty easy on your fingers. And they can be a little easier on your ears too.

Okay. That's actually an interesting segue for the next one, right? Easy on your ears, which is the Silent Red.

Right. I'll back up just a little bit, and both the Cherry MX Red and the Cherry MX Silent Red are moderately lightweight. Like that, [laughs] that wishy-washy light/medium weight. So, they're easy to type on. They don't offer a lot of resistance. They don't really push back at you a lot. So, most people are going to find that, that they're easy to type on for long periods of time. They're not fatiguing, but they're not so light that it's like typing on nothing.

My test and what I always ask about these lighter switches, can I or can like, would you say a, an average person, if there is such a thing, rest their fingers on the board while thinking?

Oh, right.

Or will I get characters on the screen? What do you think?

Right. Um, I would say with the red switches, most people will not get characters on their screen if they rest their fingers on the keys. They're not so light or so easy to, to actuate that it's easy to get accidental key presses. You can put your fingers on them. You can probably wiggle your fingers around a little bit on the keys without, without anything happening.

Cool. Okay. So then, so those, those are the reds. And then we kind of touched on the silents as well.

Right. So, linear switches in general, because there's no click and because there's no tactile bump, uh, tend to be a bit quieter. They're, if you think of switches in three big families, linear, tactile and clicky, the linear is the, tends to be the quietest family.

Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Taking that I guess a step further, you've got silenced switches like the Cherry MX Silent Red which has, built in stuff [laughs] in the switch to make it even quieter. It's really quiet.

Mm-hmm [affirmative].

I compare it to I think a, um, just a normal laptop keyboard. It's probably just a touch louder than that, but not a lot. Compared to your, standard, you know, your $15 from Best Buy office keyboard, [laughs] um, it is probably at least as quiet as that.

Right. Though in, in a previous episode we did kind of touch on the notion of when you're typing it's not just a switch you're really hearing, right? There's a lot of plastic on plastic and bottoming out and stuff like that, right?

True, yeah.

So, would you say that Silent Red, by itself, does it make a significant difference? Like if, if, you know, we have 100% of the audio output of, you know, energetic typing, and then you take out the, the key switch sound let's say, because your key switch is perfectly silent-

Mm-hmm [affirmative].

how much of that is still left? Like, uh, am I truly quiet enough for a call now, for example? Or would I need to type softly in a call?

Right. I mean of course it's going to vary somewhat, with the individual. But the nature of, uh... the sound from bottoming out is one of the things specifically mitigated [laughs] in silenced switches like the Cherry MX Silent Red.

Mmm.

So, you get much, much less, I, you know, I would say as, as an aggressive typist myself, you get quite a lot less thwock, thwock, thwock from bottoming out.

Mmm.

Um, you get, I'm trying to come up with an appropriate onomatopoeia. [laughs]

[laughs]

And it, I'm, i-, uh, I'm not getting there. But it's not thwocky, it's more tappy but not as high-pitched as you might think of tap sounding.

For some reason, raindrops come to mind. I'm not talking about a full-on summer storm but like raindrops hitting a car roof. [laughs] Is that weird?

[laughs] Um, I know what you mean. Right, like soft rain. Not, [laughs] not an old, uh, very metal-rich car. [laughs] But yeah.

One of the plastic things we're driving around these days.

Ri- [laughs] right, exactly.

Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Yeah, the quality of the sound is also, i- is also quite different as well as the, uh, amount of sound, the volume.

So, it feels different to bottom out. So, like you're saying it, it mitigates the noise but, obviously, to mitigate the noise you got to mitigate the actual bottoming out, right? So, it's like it's cushioned?

Right, yeah. It does feel, um, it does feel cushioned. The impact is, is softer feeling when you bottom out. You don't really feel that plastic-on-plastic impact. You feel, more like you're hitting something a bit softer. It's not squishy like you might think of, um, if you think of a really awful, cheap [laughs] keyboard and you get that kinda squishy feeling when you press the keys all the way down. It's not squishy like that. It's just not, the impact is just not so sharp feeling.

Right. Well, one thing I do with other switches when I want to soften the impact a little bit is I tend to install o-rings on my keycaps. And then, and then when I press it down, I can't, I don't really bottom out 'cause I bottom out on the o-ring really, not the actual switch. Would you say for Silent Reds, would, would o-rings be redundant because the switch already does that kind of dampening?

Yeah, I think that they would in large part be redundant. I don't know how much more dampening you're going to get-

Mm-hmm [affirmative].

by adding o-rings. Maybe a tiny bit. So, if you're super sensitive to sound, they might help a tiny bit. What they will do is shorten the, the travel distance. So, if that's something you're looking for, then, um, then you may still like the feeling of, of o-rings with the Silent Reds because it'll be quiet and you'll have less key travel. There'll be less distance before you bottom out.

That's actually really interesting what you said about the travel because... I- if we're going back to the laptop question, so if I wanted to emulate a laptop to, to an extent-

Mm-hmm [affirmative].

then really I would just take a linear switch, maybe even a Silver or a Box Red or, not even specifically, uh, the Silent Red, and I can even double up the o-rings-

Mm-hmm [affirmative].

and really narrow down the range of movement? Like, would that be a reasonable way to try to emulate a laptop keyboard with a mechanical one?

Yeah. I mean it's, well (A), it's probably about the only way. [laughs]

Mm-hmm [affirmative].

But yeah, that's probably at least in my experience, I think that's about the closest that you're going to get to the feeling of a laptop keyboard, or the, the chiclet style like the Apple Magic type-

Right.

keyboard with the very shallow keys, is, uh, a linear switch plus one or two, and I think I've even gotten away with three o-rings.

Wow.

[laughs] Um, i- it, that will kind of depend on your, keycaps. In some cases it's doable so then you have noticeably less travel before you bottom out, and your keyboard will feel shallower.

And will be quieter too, right?

Yes, it will be quieter.

Mm-hmm [affirmative].

S-, you know, somewhat. Depends on the switch. Now, if you add o-rings to something like a Cherry MX Blue which is clicky, eh, it's probably not gonna be a lot quieter. [laughs]

[laughs] Right. Right, for sure. Okay. So then was that the Silent Red? Do we want to say anything else about that switch?

I think, you know, if you like the, the idea of a, a fairly lightweight linear switch, something that's really easy on your fingers but not so easy that you accidentally shoot off letters [laughs] when you don't mean to, um, and you want something really quiet, then the Cherry MX Silent Red is a good, a good choice I think.

Cool.

Yeah.

I guess, I guess one thing I will, I will say again here is that maybe by the time you're listening to this we already have MX Red and Silent Red also for the Moonlander. Uh, I'm definitely working on it. But yeah, for now, we don't have them yet. I just, I did, we did want to include them in this episode because they're good switches. So-

Right.

we're definitely working on it.

Yeah. And if you're, uh, if you get an ErgoDox EZ Original or Shine with the underboard LEDs or the Planck EZ, um, standard, you can get any of those with the Cherry MX Red or Silent Red switches.

Cool. So, and, and finally we get to the last red switch which is one that we do carry RGB versions of.

Mm-hmm [affirmative].

That would be the Kailh Box Red, right?

Right.

What's that like?

Well, it's really similar to Cherry MX Red. If you listened to the episode about brown switches, kind of in the way that Kailh Box Brown is similar to Cherry MX Brown, so Kailh Box Red is similar to Cherry MX Red. It has the same force rating and yeah, they're very, very similar. I would say that the Kailh Box Red may feel a little bit smoother than the Cherry MX Red. Some people find Cherry switches to have, I don't know, some people describe it as a little scratchy or a little sandy or rough feeling.

For the Cherry?

Cherry switches, yeah.

Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Some people find that they kind of have this, a little, yeah, I don't know, I guess a little roughness. The Kailh Box switches tend not to have that feeling, tend to be smoother feeling. And to me, and th-, and this is a very subtle difference, [laughs] I think that the Kailh Box Red might feel just the tiniest bit springier than Cherry MX Red, that like the, the recoil, the up, I don't know, what you wanna, the upstroke I guess, um, maybe be, you know, just like a tiny bit firmer.

Right.

This is, uh, this is a really, really subtle [laughs] difference. But if we're looking for differences, yeah, I sort of notice that. [laughs]

Cool. I guess, I guess another big difference with the Box switches in general but also the Box Reds in particular is the stem and how the switch mates with the keycap because of the stem, right?

Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Yeah, the, the Box switches are aptly named because there's a little box around the little cross or X which is the part that, uh, interfaces with the keycap. What that means, what that should mean in practice [laughs] is that it gives the switch a little bit more sort of dust and, um, splash protection. So the Box switches have a little more, I guess protection is the right word-

Mm-hmm [affirmative].

um, from dust, debris and liquids. I mean you can't, you can't expect to spill your coffee on your keyboard and have everything be okay just because you have Box switches. [laughs]

Right.

But, um, you know, a couple of drops here and there are less likely to cause problems with the board or the switches if you have Box switches than if you have standard ones.

Mm-hmm [affirmative].

However, as a side effect the fit with some types of keycaps is tighter, uh-

Hmm.

with the box switches. So this is the reason we don't offer the Kailh Box switches with non-RGB keyboards.

Cause they got different keycaps?

Right.

Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Our non-backlit keycaps have a tight enough fit with the Box switches that sometimes the keycap stems crack or break.

Mm-hmm [affirmative].

So just to be on the safe side, you know, so that we're not sending you something that has, that we know, [laughs] um, has a certain likelihood of breaking , we only offer the Kailh Box switches with backlit keyboards which means Moonlander, ErgoDox EZ Glow and Planck EZ Glow. Those keycaps which are m- made by a different manufacturer, uh, the fit seems just fine.

Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Cool. All right. So then, what would you say subjectively if I am on the fence, like, "I'm not sure. Do I, do I want to wait for the MX Reds or Silent Reds to become available for the Glow? Or do I want to just go for the Box Reds or, or go, you know, or lose the lighting and just go for something that has the Silent Red or MX Red?" What, what would you do there?

Uh, boy. [laughs] It depends on, uh, on what's most important to you I think. Like if you, um, if you have to take notes in a Zoom meeting, s- stuff like that, if you have to be typing while people are talking, you may want to think about the Silent Reds because then you don't have to worry about stabbing at the mute button and stuff. Um, people will probably not hear, uh, much typing noise if you're using the Silent Red switch. Or, you know, or if you're in a shared workspace and your office mate or house mate, [laughs] requires a quiet working environment, or if you, you know, require a quiet working environment for whatever reason, just preference or the type of work you do, then the Silent Red is a good choice.

You were talking about this and it kinda made me want to try something. So, I got, I got a linear switch right here. I have the, uh, the Kailh Silver.

Mm-hmm [affirmative].

So, I'm just gonna do a bunch of typing right here on the recording, uh-

Okay.

and we can decide if it's loud or if it's kind of bearable or like how audible is this on your side?

It's audible. I can hear that there's typing. But I wouldn't call it, I wouldn't call it loud.

Hmm.

Like I, it's not interfering with me understanding you.

Right. Uh-

Now, I have a keyboard with Silent Reds here if we want to do a comparison.

Oh yeah, let's, let- let's do that just for fun. Again, this is, the, the reason why we wanted to do these episodes rather than a sound test is that the sound tests are so unscientific, right? It depends what room you're in and the mic and everything. But yeah, if you got a Silent Red, let's, let's hear that.

Sure.

If you want to type something, yeah.

Right. Sure. I mean and obviously this is also very unscientific. We're not in the same room. We're not even in the same country. [laughs]

Right.

And, um, you know, uh-

There's, there's like American side on, sound on your side and-

[laughs]

mine is like totally Canadian sound.

Exactly, right. Like, um, when I type, I'm not gonna put any U's in color and favorite.

[laughs]

[laughs] And, um, but, you know, I'm sure that our typing styles are different, all that kind of stuff. Um, but anyway I'm just gonna, I am typing away with, um, the Silent Reds.

Wow, that is actually super quiet.

Right. And, uh, I'm not-

Oh, but, but you're not using... I'm using like a, a desk mic. I'm using a Blue Yeti so it's kind of hovering over my keyboard whereas you are using, um, a headset one, right?

Right. So, I'm gonna, [laughs] this is, I'm glad there's not a camera. I'm gonna put my face down close to the keyboard-

[laughs]

and type.

Which is not a realistic scenario to be fair. I mean that's not something that's gonna happen in a-

Exactly. But like if you, if you're doing some recording right in front of where your keyboard is, it may be, it may be fairly close.

Yeah.

So, um, let's take the visual out of this, of me hunched over with my face right by my keyboard-

Okay.

and imagine a, a microphone close by. Here we go, I would say I'm, I would say the mic is maybe an inch and a half away.

Wow, that's quiet. That is super quiet. Like there's no way that would bug me on a call even, even like that, yeah. So, that's, that's Silent Reds.

Right, yeah.

Yeah, so it really does make a difference. I think, again, it's, it's hard to tell because I was typing on my side. Uh, we'll see what, what the recording comes out as. But, uh, to me it sounded significantly quieter than the Kailh Silver I was typing on.

Okay. Um, cool. That was a good, that was a good little experiment to do. [laughs]

Cool. So then I guess, I guess to answer my own question from before, I guess what I would do if I wanted a Silent Red board right now, I would probably get a backlit one with different switches, like maybe I would get even a board with clicky switches just for variety. And then I would get a set of Silent Reds to put into my board, and that way I, I have the best of both worlds.

Mm-hmm [affirmative], sure. RGB compatible Cherry MX Silent Reds are... th- they do make them. They're not always the easiest things to find. But, but they exist. [laughs] Um, and there are other silenced, there are both, you know, silenced tactile and linear switches. Um, but there are other types of silenced linear switches like, um, Kailh makes one, the Kailh Box Si-, I don't, I can't remember right off the top of my head if they're called Silent Red or Silent Pink. And I haven't used those myself so I can't really speak to what they're like. But I imagine that they are, you know, that they're similar-

Right.

to the Cherry MX Silent Red, right? So, Kailh makes one, um, Zeal PC makes some silenced linear switches. The Healios and one or two other types. [laughs] So there are, there are, um, options available out there if you're interested.

Cool. All right, yeah, this was a really fun one.

Yeah.

[laughs]

[laughs]

Thank you very much.

All right, sure. Thank you.

See you on the next one.

Yep.

Bye.

Bye-bye