Brown

Tactile
Duration: 22m 53s

Think of a hardwood floor that's made of little planks of wood that are closely joined together.

Switches mentioned in this episode

Cherry MX brown

45±20gf

Actuation force

2.0±0.6mm

Pre-travel

Kailh box brown

50±15gf

Actuation force

1.8±0.3mm

Pre-travel

Kailh brown

60±10gf

Actuation force

2.0±0.6mm

Pre-travel

Transcripts

Duration: 22m 53s
Erez
00m 03s
Hello, and welcome to Tisha Talks Switches. I'm Erez from ZSA, and with me here today is Tisha, our resident switch expert and support lead. How's it going, Tisha?
Hello, and welcome to Tisha Talks Switches. I'm Erez from ZSA, and with me here today is Tisha, our resident switch expert and support lead. How's it going, Tisha?
Tisha
00m 09s
It's going okay. How are you?
It's going okay. How are you?
Erez
00m 10s
I'm good. I'm good. It's getting to be springtime here in Southern Ontario, and I'm liking it.
I'm good. I'm good. It's getting to be springtime here in Southern Ontario, and I'm liking it.
Tisha
00m 13s
[laughs] It is here too in Chicago, and I'm a winter person, so I'm a little sad.
[laughs] It is here too in Chicago, and I'm a winter person, so I'm a little sad.
Erez
00m 18s
All right. So today we're here to talk about some Brown switches, right?
All right. So today we're here to talk about some Brown switches, right?
Tisha
00m 21s
Right. Yeah. We carry a few different Brown switches, mm-hmm [affirmative].
Right. Yeah. We carry a few different Brown switches, mm-hmm [affirmative].
Erez
00m 24s
Cool. So those are, those will be tactile switches.
Cool. So those are, those will be tactile switches.
Tisha
00m 25s
Right.
Right.
Erez
00m 26s
So maybe we kind of covered this in the intro, but maybe let's, let's cover that again just briefly. So what is a tactile switch really?
So maybe we kind of covered this in the intro, but maybe let's, let's cover that again just briefly. So what is a tactile switch really?
Tisha
00m 30s
Sure. Tactile switches have, basically, a little bump of additional resistance, usually at the point the switch actuates, to give your fingers a little tactile feedback as you type.
Sure. Tactile switches have, basically, a little bump of additional resistance, usually at the point the switch actuates, to give your fingers a little tactile feedback as you type.
Erez
00m 39s
Right. You know, to me, one thing, reading descriptions of tactile switches, it always, when I read the description, it always seems like that bump is going to be really noticeable. Whereas I find that, at least for me subjectively, often it just feels like a linear switch that's not as smooth. You know what I mean?
Right. You know, to me, one thing, reading descriptions of tactile switches, it always, when I read the description, it always seems like that bump is going to be really noticeable. Whereas I find that, at least for me subjectively, often it just feels like a linear switch that's not as smooth. You know what I mean?
Tisha
00m 52s
Right. I, yeah, I do know what you mean, and it, it depends on the switch. Some of them, I wouldn't say any of them that we carry, but there are switches out there with big tactile bumps where it is something you kind of have to push through. But a lot of them it's more like ... This is maybe kind of a funny description, but like kind of the opposite of a notch.
Right. I, yeah, I do know what you mean, and it, it depends on the switch. Some of them, I wouldn't say any of them that we carry, but there are switches out there with big tactile bumps where it is something you kind of have to push through. But a lot of them it's more like ... This is maybe kind of a funny description, but like kind of the opposite of a notch.
Erez
01m 08s
Oh, okay. It feels kind of like, almost like a recess in the line when you're pressing down. Like a dip, almost.
Oh, okay. It feels kind of like, almost like a recess in the line when you're pressing down. Like a dip, almost.
Tisha
01m 12s
Right, right. Although we describe it, and it is commonly described, as a bump, so that's kind of the opposite of a notch, but think something generally kind of small like that, not, not big like a stop, but small like, like a little hitch, like a little notch.
Right, right. Although we describe it, and it is commonly described, as a bump, so that's kind of the opposite of a notch, but think something generally kind of small like that, not, not big like a stop, but small like, like a little hitch, like a little notch.
Erez
01m 24s
Right. I think something a lot of people have experience with, now that I think of it, is with cameras. Sometimes you have a half press, and then you press all the way down, like half press to focus and then you press all the way down to take the picture.
Right. I think something a lot of people have experience with, now that I think of it, is with cameras. Sometimes you have a half press, and then you press all the way down, like half press to focus and then you press all the way down to take the picture.
Tisha
01m 32s
Oh, right.
Oh, right.
Erez
01m 33s
And there it really stops you, and I think for me that's kind of where I came to tactile switches from. That was my experience with a type of switch that has a midway thing, bump.
And there it really stops you, and I think for me that's kind of where I came to tactile switches from. That was my experience with a type of switch that has a midway thing, bump.
Tisha
01m 41s
[laughs] Right, right.
[laughs] Right, right.
Erez
01m 41s
But it's, it wasn't really like that at all.
But it's, it wasn't really like that at all.
Tisha
01m 43s
No, for the most part it's not going to be that severe at all. It's just, ... I'm trying to think of a, of an analogy. Maybe like if you're, [laughs] if you think of a hardwood floor that's made of little planks of wood that are closely joined together. And if it's done well, so everything's nice and even, but you run your fingers over the floor, you'll just feel kind of a teeny little seam there going between planks. It's maybe a little-
No, for the most part it's not going to be that severe at all. It's just, ... I'm trying to think of a, of an analogy. Maybe like if you're, [laughs] if you think of a hardwood floor that's made of little planks of wood that are closely joined together. And if it's done well, so everything's nice and even, but you run your fingers over the floor, you'll just feel kind of a teeny little seam there going between planks. It's maybe a little-
Erez
02m 03s
I have never done that.
I have never done that.
Tisha
02m 04s
[laughs]
[laughs]
Erez
02m 04s
I, I need to do that. That sounds oddly satisfying.
I, I need to do that. That sounds oddly satisfying.
Tisha
02m 06s
Right. But even if you haven't done it, maybe you can kind of imagine what it might be like.
Right. But even if you haven't done it, maybe you can kind of imagine what it might be like.
Erez
02m 10s
Yeah.
Yeah.
Tisha
02m 10s
We're talking about a small sort of ... texture change. Well, maybe that's not quite the right word, but maybe more like a seam than a bump would be a good description in some cases.
We're talking about a small sort of ... texture change. Well, maybe that's not quite the right word, but maybe more like a seam than a bump would be a good description in some cases.
Erez
02m 21s
I like it. I, I can see that.
I like it. I, I can see that.
Tisha
02m 22s
[laughs]
[laughs]
Erez
02m 22s
So if it's that subtle, would you say the, the audio profile of those switches is, is kinda like the linear ones? Or is there a difference between, you know, when you're typing in terms of loudness?
So if it's that subtle, would you say the, the audio profile of those switches is, is kinda like the linear ones? Or is there a difference between, you know, when you're typing in terms of loudness?
Tisha
02m 30s
Right. Of course it depends on more than just the switch itself, but for the most part they are going to be noticeably louder than linear switches.
Right. Of course it depends on more than just the switch itself, but for the most part they are going to be noticeably louder than linear switches.
Erez
02m 38s
They are gonna be noticeably louder?
They are gonna be noticeably louder?
Tisha
02m 39s
Yes. Not as loud, you know, so you, you've got kind of the three big categories, linear, tactile and clicky, and these are in the middle. Clicky switches are the loudest. But again, for the most part, they're going to be louder. There are things hitting other things inside the switch.
Yes. Not as loud, you know, so you, you've got kind of the three big categories, linear, tactile and clicky, and these are in the middle. Clicky switches are the loudest. But again, for the most part, they're going to be louder. There are things hitting other things inside the switch.
Erez
02m 51s
Right.
Right.
Tisha
02m 51s
And probably also that extra bit of force that you need, ... to I, I guess clear for lack of a better word, the tactile bump will will tend to make a little bit more noise as you're typing.
And probably also that extra bit of force that you need, ... to I, I guess clear for lack of a better word, the tactile bump will will tend to make a little bit more noise as you're typing.
Erez
02m 59s
I never considered that. Right, because most of the noise that, at least with non-clicky switches, I feel most of the noise is kind of plastic-on-plastic, that thwack as the key bottoms out.
I never considered that. Right, because most of the noise that, at least with non-clicky switches, I feel most of the noise is kind of plastic-on-plastic, that thwack as the key bottoms out.
Tisha
03m 05s
Right.
Right.
Erez
03m 05s
And yeah, I guess with a tactile switch I will press down harder. Even if the switch is rated the same as the linear one, it still has that bump, that yeah, that I got to clear. So I'll kinda thwack it a little bit harder than, than a linear one. That makes sense.
And yeah, I guess with a tactile switch I will press down harder. Even if the switch is rated the same as the linear one, it still has that bump, that yeah, that I got to clear. So I'll kinda thwack it a little bit harder than, than a linear one. That makes sense.
Tisha
03m 13s
To me they have a, hm ... a pretty typical mechanical keyboard sound. Of course, that's a matter of perspective. I think for a lot of people clicky switches are the stereotypical mechanical keyboard sound, but there's something about that kind of thwock, thwock sound that says mechanical keyboard to me.
To me they have a, hm ... a pretty typical mechanical keyboard sound. Of course, that's a matter of perspective. I think for a lot of people clicky switches are the stereotypical mechanical keyboard sound, but there's something about that kind of thwock, thwock sound that says mechanical keyboard to me.
Erez
03m 30s
Right. So really before we dive into the three types of Brown switches we carry, why would, or why do you think most people go for Brown? Because of that, because of that classic mechanical feel and sound?
Right. So really before we dive into the three types of Brown switches we carry, why would, or why do you think most people go for Brown? Because of that, because of that classic mechanical feel and sound?
Tisha
03m 41s
I think so, and probably for most people, this is, you know, just a guess, but probably for most people, the feel so that you get a little signal. Your fingertips feel a little signal when the key is actuated. With a linear switch, in general, most of them actuate about halfway down through their travel distance, but you don't get any... there's no change in the way the switch feels when that happens.
I think so, and probably for most people, this is, you know, just a guess, but probably for most people, the feel so that you get a little signal. Your fingertips feel a little signal when the key is actuated. With a linear switch, in general, most of them actuate about halfway down through their travel distance, but you don't get any... there's no change in the way the switch feels when that happens.
Erez
03m 58s
Right.
Right.
Tisha
03m 59s
With a tactile switch there's that little change in the way the switch feels that kind of goes hand in hand with the actuation.
With a tactile switch there's that little change in the way the switch feels that kind of goes hand in hand with the actuation.
Erez
04m 04s
I hear, yeah. And it kind of works together as one system. Like you feel it and you see it on your screen.
I hear, yeah. And it kind of works together as one system. Like you feel it and you see it on your screen.
Tisha
04m 07s
Right.
Right.
Erez
04m 08s
And yeah. Yeah, for sure. So then I guess the, the granddaddy of all Brown switches or really all tactile switches would be the Cherry MX Brown, right?
And yeah. Yeah, for sure. So then I guess the, the granddaddy of all Brown switches or really all tactile switches would be the Cherry MX Brown, right?
Tisha
04m 16s
Yeah. I would say so. It's been around a while. It's very popular. It's a switch that a lot of people have heard of. [laughs]
Yeah. I would say so. It's been around a while. It's very popular. It's a switch that a lot of people have heard of. [laughs]
Erez
04m 21s
Right. It's actually our default, you know,-
Right. It's actually our default, you know,-
Tisha
04m 23s
Right.
Right.
Erez
04m 23s
when, when we were designing both for the ErgoDox and, and the new website, ZSA.io, at some point we had to decide, okay, if I've never heard of switches at all, what's the switch that should be presented as the default? And yeah, MX Brown really feels like that classic switch, you know? Like, when in doubt, MX Brown, right?
when, when we were designing both for the ErgoDox and, and the new website, ZSA.io, at some point we had to decide, okay, if I've never heard of switches at all, what's the switch that should be presented as the default? And yeah, MX Brown really feels like that classic switch, you know? Like, when in doubt, MX Brown, right?
Tisha
04m 36s
Right. Yeah. I think if you're just getting into mechanical keyboards, getting your first mechanical keyboard, it's a good choice — if you're otherwise not really sure about exactly what you want. If you know you want something very quiet or that you prefer something very loud, then, you know, no, there are other ways to go, but if you just, you know, I want something that feels good under my fingers that isn't either too heavy or too light, that gives me a little bit of feedback, this is a nice place to start.
Right. Yeah. I think if you're just getting into mechanical keyboards, getting your first mechanical keyboard, it's a good choice — if you're otherwise not really sure about exactly what you want. If you know you want something very quiet or that you prefer something very loud, then, you know, no, there are other ways to go, but if you just, you know, I want something that feels good under my fingers that isn't either too heavy or too light, that gives me a little bit of feedback, this is a nice place to start.
Erez
04m 56s
Nice. So how would you characterize the feel of a Cherry MX Brown? So not too heavy, you said.
Nice. So how would you characterize the feel of a Cherry MX Brown? So not too heavy, you said.
Tisha
05m 01s
Right. It is on the lighter side, I would say. I like to describe it, which is, you know, maybe kind of a wishy-washy description, but as light/medium because it's not, it's not super light but it's on the lighter side. So it's not tiring. It's easy to type on, but I think you still do get that feeling of substance, I guess, under your fingers.
Right. It is on the lighter side, I would say. I like to describe it, which is, you know, maybe kind of a wishy-washy description, but as light/medium because it's not, it's not super light but it's on the lighter side. So it's not tiring. It's easy to type on, but I think you still do get that feeling of substance, I guess, under your fingers.
Erez
05m 19s
Right.
Right.
Tisha
05m 19s
It's not so light that it's, I guess, trivial-feeling.
It's not so light that it's, I guess, trivial-feeling.
Erez
05m 21s
Mm-hmm [affirmative]. One thing people sometimes tell me on the MX Browns (you've probably seen this as well) some people, I don't know, one in I don't know how many, they say they ping on the upstroke, like that they press the switch, it's, the switch is fine, it actuates, but then they let go, and there's like this slight mechanical ting or something like that. Really irritates some people. Have you, have you seen this?
Mm-hmm [affirmative]. One thing people sometimes tell me on the MX Browns (you've probably seen this as well) some people, I don't know, one in I don't know how many, they say they ping on the upstroke, like that they press the switch, it's, the switch is fine, it actuates, but then they let go, and there's like this slight mechanical ting or something like that. Really irritates some people. Have you, have you seen this?
Tisha
05m 38s
I have and you're right. I don't think that it's ... On one hand I don't think that it's super common. I don't necessarily think that that's the way they all are, but it can happen. And also there are some people who are more sensitive to it than others. Some people who maybe wouldn't, you know, don't even notice it at all and some for whom it's just super annoying. And it's because, I mean, it's because of there is um, a uh, metal spring inside and some other little metal parts. ... It also, I think depends a little bit on how you type. I think if you're an aggressive typer who tends to hit the keys fairly hard, you're more likely to get that. It's kind of almost a little like a metallic impact sound almost
I have and you're right. I don't think that it's ... On one hand I don't think that it's super common. I don't necessarily think that that's the way they all are, but it can happen. And also there are some people who are more sensitive to it than others. Some people who maybe wouldn't, you know, don't even notice it at all and some for whom it's just super annoying. And it's because, I mean, it's because of there is um, a uh, metal spring inside and some other little metal parts. ... It also, I think depends a little bit on how you type. I think if you're an aggressive typer who tends to hit the keys fairly hard, you're more likely to get that. It's kind of almost a little like a metallic impact sound almost
Erez
06m 10s
As the metal basically deforms back to its default state, kind of.
As the metal basically deforms back to its default state, kind of.
Tisha
06m 13s
Right. I think it's as the, the spring is recoiling
Right. I think it's as the, the spring is recoiling
Erez
06m 15s
Mm-hmm [affirmative]
Mm-hmm [affirmative]
Tisha
06m 16s
Basically. Yeah. So it can happen, and the Cherry MX Brown, it can happen with this switch, yeah. I think that some other tactile switches are less prone to it.
Basically. Yeah. So it can happen, and the Cherry MX Brown, it can happen with this switch, yeah. I think that some other tactile switches are less prone to it.
Erez
06m 23s
So like, so let's say I wanna, I wanna go tactile, and I'm very concerned about this potential thing. It's just, just to clarify, it's not all of them, is it? Like, it's not-
So like, so let's say I wanna, I wanna go tactile, and I'm very concerned about this potential thing. It's just, just to clarify, it's not all of them, is it? Like, it's not-
Tisha
06m 30s
Right.
Right.
Erez
06m 31s
It's kind of a... every now and then type of thing, right?
It's kind of a... every now and then type of thing, right?
Tisha
06m 33s
Right. I would say so.
Right. I would say so.
Erez
06m 34s
But let's say I'm, you know, I'm very sensitive to, to tinking sounds and what not, but I still wanna go tactile. What, what would I do? What would you suggest?
But let's say I'm, you know, I'm very sensitive to, to tinking sounds and what not, but I still wanna go tactile. What, what would I do? What would you suggest?
Tisha
06m 40s
Well, the Kailh Box Brown is another tactile switch. It's another, you know, Brown. [laughs]
Well, the Kailh Box Brown is another tactile switch. It's another, you know, Brown. [laughs]
Erez
06m 44s
Right.
Right.
Tisha
06m 44s
And pretty similar to the Cherry MX Brown, but at least, I guess in my experience and from what I've heard from users, it doesn't seem to be so prone to that pingy noise.
And pretty similar to the Cherry MX Brown, but at least, I guess in my experience and from what I've heard from users, it doesn't seem to be so prone to that pingy noise.
Erez
06m 53s
It makes me think... maybe it's because of the shape of the stem. Because the Box keys, what makes them ... Well, the Box in the Box key is the stem of the key is shaped different versus the classic MX shape, and they are more stable. I wonder if a part of that ting is due to some vibration on the stem that the Box Brown just doesn't have because it's a bit sturdier.
It makes me think... maybe it's because of the shape of the stem. Because the Box keys, what makes them ... Well, the Box in the Box key is the stem of the key is shaped different versus the classic MX shape, and they are more stable. I wonder if a part of that ting is due to some vibration on the stem that the Box Brown just doesn't have because it's a bit sturdier.
Tisha
07m 07s
Right. Yeah, maybe so, and maybe the extra just kind of plastic, the extra material in the Box stem, the box part, it provides some insulation.
Right. Yeah, maybe so, and maybe the extra just kind of plastic, the extra material in the Box stem, the box part, it provides some insulation.
Erez
07m 15s
Just muffles it.
Just muffles it.
Tisha
07m 15s
Right.
Right.
Erez
07m 16s
Hmm.
Hmm.
Tisha
07m 17s
Yeah. Actually I don't, I don't know, [laughs] but, but maybe.
Yeah. Actually I don't, I don't know, [laughs] but, but maybe.
Erez
07m 20s
So would you say that just a regular keycap, like a 1U keycap, ASDF, mounted on a Box switch versus an MX Brown, does it actually feel more stable on, on a Box switch?
So would you say that just a regular keycap, like a 1U keycap, ASDF, mounted on a Box switch versus an MX Brown, does it actually feel more stable on, on a Box switch?
Tisha
07m 30s
Boy, that is a good question. I think, and any of these differences are gonna be super, super small, I think that it might feel like the fit is a little tighter but switch stems have some lateral play built in. It's by design that keys on a mechanical keyboard feel, I mean, I guess a little wobbly. If you put your fingers on the keys and just, without pressing down, just wiggle, you'll be able to wiggle them a little bit by design because when we type, our fingers don't go exactly straight up and down. We hit keys maybe from, from a different angle depending on the row and their column they're in and stuff. So the switch stems need to be able to... need to have a little bit of play to account for that. If they could only move straight up and down with no wiggle, there would be a lot of friction when you typed because you're not hitting the keys exactly straight up and down, if that makes sense.
Boy, that is a good question. I think, and any of these differences are gonna be super, super small, I think that it might feel like the fit is a little tighter but switch stems have some lateral play built in. It's by design that keys on a mechanical keyboard feel, I mean, I guess a little wobbly. If you put your fingers on the keys and just, without pressing down, just wiggle, you'll be able to wiggle them a little bit by design because when we type, our fingers don't go exactly straight up and down. We hit keys maybe from, from a different angle depending on the row and their column they're in and stuff. So the switch stems need to be able to... need to have a little bit of play to account for that. If they could only move straight up and down with no wiggle, there would be a lot of friction when you typed because you're not hitting the keys exactly straight up and down, if that makes sense.
Erez
08m 06s
The key would lock up on me basically. I would try to depress it, but because I'm doing it at an angle, it just, it wouldn't go because it won't translate my angular motion into a straight down, right?
The key would lock up on me basically. I would try to depress it, but because I'm doing it at an angle, it just, it wouldn't go because it won't translate my angular motion into a straight down, right?
Tisha
08m 12s
Right, or it would, but it would be, there would be a lot of friction, and it would be kind of difficult. So because of that, I don't necessarily think they feel more stable in that there's less wiggle, but I do think that they might fit just a touch more tightly.
Right, or it would, but it would be, there would be a lot of friction, and it would be kind of difficult. So because of that, I don't necessarily think they feel more stable in that there's less wiggle, but I do think that they might fit just a touch more tightly.
Erez
08m 24s
Makes sense. So then the actual experience of typing on Box Browns versus say MX Browns, what's the feel like?
Makes sense. So then the actual experience of typing on Box Browns versus say MX Browns, what's the feel like?
Tisha
08m 30s
Again, it's, it's very similar. They're meant to be quite similar switches. So all of these differences are small but I feel like the Box Brown has a slightly gentler tactile bump in that it requires maybe a little bit less force, but it's also a little bit crisper feeling bump. The Cherry MX Brown, I tend to describe its tactile bump as being kind of round. It's kind of like a rounded-off hill.
Again, it's, it's very similar. They're meant to be quite similar switches. So all of these differences are small but I feel like the Box Brown has a slightly gentler tactile bump in that it requires maybe a little bit less force, but it's also a little bit crisper feeling bump. The Cherry MX Brown, I tend to describe its tactile bump as being kind of round. It's kind of like a rounded-off hill.
Erez
08m 50s
Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Tisha
08m 51s
The Kailh Box Brown is a little bit, it's got a little bit more of a peak at the top. It's a little bit sharper hill.
The Kailh Box Brown is a little bit, it's got a little bit more of a peak at the top. It's a little bit sharper hill.
Erez
08m 56s
Interesting. And then do I get the letter on my screen before or after that little hill? Before or after the bump?
Interesting. And then do I get the letter on my screen before or after that little hill? Before or after the bump?
Tisha
09m 01s
You get it basically at the same time. With all of the Brown switches the actuation happens basically at the same time yeah, as, as the tactile bump.
You get it basically at the same time. With all of the Brown switches the actuation happens basically at the same time yeah, as, as the tactile bump.
Erez
09m 09s
That's an important distinction to me because I think when you look at the graphs and the specs, it seems like, you know, it doesn't happen at exactly the same point, right? Just electrically I guess, the contact is, it has to be before or after, but really in actual use because of the tolerances, it feels like it happens at the same time when you're just typing at full tilt?
That's an important distinction to me because I think when you look at the graphs and the specs, it seems like, you know, it doesn't happen at exactly the same point, right? Just electrically I guess, the contact is, it has to be before or after, but really in actual use because of the tolerances, it feels like it happens at the same time when you're just typing at full tilt?
Tisha
09m 20s
Right. Right.
Right. Right.
Erez
09m 21s
Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Tisha
09m 22s
The Box Brown has a slightly shorter total travel and pre-travel distance, but we're talking fractions of a millimeter. So I don't know. For me, I don't feel a difference. Certainly there are people who may, but these differences are very, very small, like, tenths of a millimeter. [laughs]
The Box Brown has a slightly shorter total travel and pre-travel distance, but we're talking fractions of a millimeter. So I don't know. For me, I don't feel a difference. Certainly there are people who may, but these differences are very, very small, like, tenths of a millimeter. [laughs]
Erez
09m 34s
Mm-hmm [affirmative], mm-hmm [affirmative]. I guess one thing I can say about the Box Brown switch is, that we found when we started stocking them is if, if you if people look at our site, they'll see that we only offer them with the RGB versions of our boards, the, the ones that light up, because those versions have different keycaps. Those come from Tai-Hao. And there are other keycaps for the ErgoDox, for the ErgoDox EZ, they come from Signature. And those Signature keycaps can actually break when you mount them on a Box Brown switch because the stem is shaped different. And that's, that surprised to me. That's something we found after we started working with them. That's when we made the call, okay, we're only gonna ship them with keycaps that we know to work well with.
Mm-hmm [affirmative], mm-hmm [affirmative]. I guess one thing I can say about the Box Brown switch is, that we found when we started stocking them is if, if you if people look at our site, they'll see that we only offer them with the RGB versions of our boards, the, the ones that light up, because those versions have different keycaps. Those come from Tai-Hao. And there are other keycaps for the ErgoDox, for the ErgoDox EZ, they come from Signature. And those Signature keycaps can actually break when you mount them on a Box Brown switch because the stem is shaped different. And that's, that surprised to me. That's something we found after we started working with them. That's when we made the call, okay, we're only gonna ship them with keycaps that we know to work well with.
Tisha
10m 04s
Right, right. That's why you'll only see the Kailh Box Brown available for the Moonlander and for the ErgoDox EZ Glow and and the Planck EZ Glow because we know... we've tested and know that they work well with the backlit key caps. But I guess, you know, that ever so slightly tighter fit makes a difference in that the fit isn't great with the Signature key caps.
Right, right. That's why you'll only see the Kailh Box Brown available for the Moonlander and for the ErgoDox EZ Glow and and the Planck EZ Glow because we know... we've tested and know that they work well with the backlit key caps. But I guess, you know, that ever so slightly tighter fit makes a difference in that the fit isn't great with the Signature key caps.
Erez
10m 19s
Yeah. Right. And that actually, another point here, I guess, is that the Box Brown is an RGB switch, and people are sometimes a little bit confused about that, right? They say, okay, RGB, does it have the light in it? But it doesn't. It's just a clear housing that lets light through if the board has that light.
Yeah. Right. And that actually, another point here, I guess, is that the Box Brown is an RGB switch, and people are sometimes a little bit confused about that, right? They say, okay, RGB, does it have the light in it? But it doesn't. It's just a clear housing that lets light through if the board has that light.
Tisha
10m 31s
Right. You can put an RGB switch on a non-backlit board. That's no problem at all. The RGB designation just means, I mean, at, at least in our case, you know, I can't, [laughs] I can't speak for other people who sell switches and write their descriptions differently, but in our case, and in most cases that I've seen, it means that the switch either has completely clear housing or in some cases like actually with the Box switches, some of the housing is opaque, but there's a cutout.
Right. You can put an RGB switch on a non-backlit board. That's no problem at all. The RGB designation just means, I mean, at, at least in our case, you know, I can't, [laughs] I can't speak for other people who sell switches and write their descriptions differently, but in our case, and in most cases that I've seen, it means that the switch either has completely clear housing or in some cases like actually with the Box switches, some of the housing is opaque, but there's a cutout.
Erez
10m 51s
Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Tisha
10m 52s
In the switch, in the, in the spot that sits on top of the LED.
In the switch, in the, in the spot that sits on top of the LED.
Erez
10m 55s
Right, right. So I guess this brings us to the final switch, final Brown switch we offer, which is actually not RGB friendly, right?
Right, right. So I guess this brings us to the final switch, final Brown switch we offer, which is actually not RGB friendly, right?
Tisha
11m 02s
Right. Right, the Kailh Brown. It's confusing because a lot of switches have really, really similar names. [laughs] So Kailh Box Brown versus Kailh Brown: they're different switches. Kailh Brown is a little different than the other two because it's... it's heavier than both. It's still obviously a tactile switch. That's why it's called Brown, [laughs] but it's weightier and to me it feels springier. Like you kinda ... as you're typing, at least to me, I feel like, oh yeah, there is, there are springs inside these.
Right. Right, the Kailh Brown. It's confusing because a lot of switches have really, really similar names. [laughs] So Kailh Box Brown versus Kailh Brown: they're different switches. Kailh Brown is a little different than the other two because it's... it's heavier than both. It's still obviously a tactile switch. That's why it's called Brown, [laughs] but it's weightier and to me it feels springier. Like you kinda ... as you're typing, at least to me, I feel like, oh yeah, there is, there are springs inside these.
Erez
11m 25s
In the sense that it pushes back, or as you're pushing down, like.
In the sense that it pushes back, or as you're pushing down, like.
Tisha
11m 28s
Probably more in the sense that it pushes back, but, ... Yeah, but I, you know, and maybe I am giving away a bit about my age here, but if you're someone who ever played with a Slinky when you were a kid I don't know. It's, it's like, a little bit like typing on lots of tiny little Slinkies.
Probably more in the sense that it pushes back, but, ... Yeah, but I, you know, and maybe I am giving away a bit about my age here, but if you're someone who ever played with a Slinky when you were a kid I don't know. It's, it's like, a little bit like typing on lots of tiny little Slinkies.
Erez
11m 40s
[laughs] I like that. We should put that on the website.
[laughs] I like that. We should put that on the website.
Tisha
11m 43s
It's springy, which, you know, makes it makes it kind of, I guess both firm and responsive-feeling, I would call it.
It's springy, which, you know, makes it makes it kind of, I guess both firm and responsive-feeling, I would call it.
Erez
11m 48s
So out of all three, totally subjective, which one is your favorite?
So out of all three, totally subjective, which one is your favorite?
Tisha
11m 52s
Oh boy, that is tough. [laughs] Well, I have to say I've used Kailh Brown the least, so it's hard to compare. I do like a heavier switch, but probably not for heavy typing on all day long because that can get tiring.
Oh boy, that is tough. [laughs] Well, I have to say I've used Kailh Brown the least, so it's hard to compare. I do like a heavier switch, but probably not for heavy typing on all day long because that can get tiring.
Erez
12m 04s
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Tisha
12m 05s
There are [laughs] ... I don't think I can pick. There are elements of both the Cherry MX Brown and the Kailh Box Brown that I like a lot. I've used both as my daily driver for long periods of time. I think for me the perfect Brown switch would be a little bit of a combination because I like that the Cherry MX Brown's tactile bump is just a little bit firmer, just a little bit more noticeable, but I like that the Kailh Box Brown's tactile bump is just a little crisper.
There are [laughs] ... I don't think I can pick. There are elements of both the Cherry MX Brown and the Kailh Box Brown that I like a lot. I've used both as my daily driver for long periods of time. I think for me the perfect Brown switch would be a little bit of a combination because I like that the Cherry MX Brown's tactile bump is just a little bit firmer, just a little bit more noticeable, but I like that the Kailh Box Brown's tactile bump is just a little crisper.
Erez
12m 25s
Mm-hmm [affirmative], mm-hmm [affirmative].
Mm-hmm [affirmative], mm-hmm [affirmative].
Tisha
12m 26s
So it's, that's a cop-out answer, I know. It's like, who's your favorite child? Well, I like them both.
So it's, that's a cop-out answer, I know. It's like, who's your favorite child? Well, I like them both.
Erez
12m 29s
Actually, actually it's an interesting answer because you made that distinction, and I can see, you know, I can see what you're saying, and there's still room, right? So there's room for yet another Brown switch that kind of melds the two and, and does it just right, possibly.
Actually, actually it's an interesting answer because you made that distinction, and I can see, you know, I can see what you're saying, and there's still room, right? So there's room for yet another Brown switch that kind of melds the two and, and does it just right, possibly.
Tisha
12m 36s
Right, right. But again, also these differences are small, and so that means I am happy to type on both of these switches. I think they're both nice-feeling. I think in general people find the Kailh switches to feel a little smoother than the Cherry switches.
Right, right. But again, also these differences are small, and so that means I am happy to type on both of these switches. I think they're both nice-feeling. I think in general people find the Kailh switches to feel a little smoother than the Cherry switches.
Erez
12m 48s
Right.
Right.
Tisha
12m 48s
Yeah.
Yeah.
Erez
12m 49s
I do, too. For me it's not, like when I say that the Kailh ones are smoother, I don't so much mean in the shape of the bump, but more along the actual stem. Like as I depress it all the way through, and then it goes up, there's just something, it almost feels like a lubricated switch, which it's not out of the factory as far as I know.
I do, too. For me it's not, like when I say that the Kailh ones are smoother, I don't so much mean in the shape of the bump, but more along the actual stem. Like as I depress it all the way through, and then it goes up, there's just something, it almost feels like a lubricated switch, which it's not out of the factory as far as I know.
Tisha
13m 01s
Right.
Right.
Erez
13m 02s
But it feels very pleasant, like very smooth in that regard rather than the bump itself.
But it feels very pleasant, like very smooth in that regard rather than the bump itself.
Tisha
13m 05s
Right. For me I think that that effect is more noticeable on the linear switches than the tactile.
Right. For me I think that that effect is more noticeable on the linear switches than the tactile.
Erez
13m 10s
Yeah.
Yeah.
Tisha
13m 10s
But I, I, but I know what you mean.
But I, I, but I know what you mean.
Erez
13m 12s
Mm-hmm [affirmative]. And I agree. I agree. It's a, on a, on a linear switch, that's all you have, right?
Mm-hmm [affirmative]. And I agree. I agree. It's a, on a, on a linear switch, that's all you have, right?
Tisha
13m 16s
Right, exactly.
Right, exactly.
Erez
13m 16s
It's just that up and down motion, so definitely. That said though, there are other tactile switches, right?
It's just that up and down motion, so definitely. That said though, there are other tactile switches, right?
Tisha
13m 20s
There are. And we'll talk about those in future episodes, but we... of course there are more out there in the world, but among the switches that we carry, there's also Kailh Copper and Cherry MX Clear, which we'll talk about later because they're, they're both more different. [laughs] The Brown switches are all pretty similar to each other. The Kailh Copper and Cherry MX Clear switches are different-
There are. And we'll talk about those in future episodes, but we... of course there are more out there in the world, but among the switches that we carry, there's also Kailh Copper and Cherry MX Clear, which we'll talk about later because they're, they're both more different. [laughs] The Brown switches are all pretty similar to each other. The Kailh Copper and Cherry MX Clear switches are different-
Erez
13m 36s
Right.
Right.
Tisha
13m 36s
from the Browns and from each other.
from the Browns and from each other.
Erez
13m 38s
Awesome. Well, thank you so much.
Awesome. Well, thank you so much.
Tisha
13m 40s
Sure. Thank you.
Sure. Thank you.
Erez
13m 40s
This was fun.
This was fun.
Tisha
13m 41s
Yeah. I hope it was helpful.
Yeah. I hope it was helpful.
Erez
13m 42s
[laughs] All right. See you on the next one.
[laughs] All right. See you on the next one.
Tisha
13m 43s
Yep.
Yep.

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