Hello, and welcome to Tisha Talks Switches, I'm Erez from ZSA, and with me here today is Tisha, our resident switch expert and support lead. How are you, Tisha?

I'm good. How are you?

I'm really good actually. It's just beautiful here today. It feels like summer, not like spring.

Oh, wow. Yeah, it does here too, but I like winter, so... [laughing]

I hear you. Yeah, no, I'm, I'm all about summer. I like winter too, I like snow. Like, it's fun, but summer is where it's at for me.

Right. Sure, sure. I just, I don't like to be warm. [laughs]

I hear. [laughing] All right. So, today we're going to talk about Silver switches, right?

Yup.

Which for us, I guess, is mainly Kailh Silver with a little bit of Speed Silver in the end?

Right, yeah. The Kailh Silver is quite a popular switch. Yeah, a lot of people like it.

Why is that?

It's lightweight, so people who type with a light touch like it. It is, I would say on the quieter side of mechanical switches. It feels really smooth. If you tend to find some other types of switches or keyboards tiring on your hands and fingers, this might be a good choice. So yeah, people who want something that feels light and smooth and easy to type on, this is a good and popular choice.

Right. It's linear like the Reds.

Right. Exactly.

I have been using MX Silver [correction: I actually mean Kailh Silver! That's my daily driver —EZ] for a long time now. That's really my daily driver. And when we were talking about Reds last time, when we're talking about them being kind of boring, just, you know, that's a linear switch, you press down and there you get the character. And I have to say the MX Silver [Kailh Silver] is kind of similar in that regard. Like I wouldn't call the tactility of it, like the actual experience of typing on it, exciting in any way, it just kind of works and stays out of the way and is smooth and pleasant. I don't know. That's kind of my experience with it, I guess.

Right. Sure. I think that makes sense. Yeah it's not, [laughs] I don't know. It's not a, like, tactile extravaganza, [laughs] but it's pleasant. I guess not everyone is looking for typing excitement, I suppose.

Right. You just shared a, a thing out of, from Twitter on the team chat, uh, what was it? It was like, "As a mechanical keyboard user, I should be able to type super loud so everyone knows I'm using a mechanical keyboard." Right?

Right. "As a mechanical keyboard user, I want to type louder so that people know I have a mechanical keyboard." [laughs]

Right.

Right.

So not everyone is like that. We have people on the team that use like super loud switches, but yeah. I mean, I like typing on calls, so that's one of the reasons why I appreciate the Silver.

Right. Not everyone wants their own keyboard to be loud and not everyone works or lives with a person who is okay with their keyboard being loud.

Right, and then, we were talking about tactility. I think one thing that stands out for me in use of the Kailh Silver is the actuation point. Basically, when you press down, it's smooth and linear and everything, but maybe notable part of the experience for me is how quickly I get the character on my screen.

Right. Kailh Silver and Cherry MX Speed Silver are speed switches. And these are the first speed switches we've talked about. And their defining characteristic is that they have a relatively quite high actuation point. Most, let's say standard, mechanical switches (the non- speed switch) the total key travel, that is the distance that you can press it until it stops, the distance you can press it until it bottoms out, is around four millimeters, you know, give or take. There's some variation, but that's fairly typical, and they actuate at about the halfway point, right around two millimeters.

Hmm.

Whereas the speed switches actuate at closer to between one quarter and one third of the way down. So let's say, depending on the switch, between 1 and 1.5 millimeters. So I mean, one millimeter is tiny, that's hardly anything.

Right.

So you barely have to touch the key.

Which is not always an advantage, right? I've been using Silver for a long time and I still sometimes find myself going, like getting a whole line of wwwww on my screen, just 'cause I let my finger sit on that key while thinking.

Right. Like, when you're not typing, you're just thinking, and maybe you're reading something, you've got your hands on the keyboard, especially if you like wiggle your fingers a little bit, or tap them a little bit or something, you could get accidental key presses because of how easy it is to actuate, especially the Silvers. To a certain degree, the other speed switches as well.

Right. Would you say this is a big differentiator from Reds that we were talking about the other day? Like, is it a big reason to go for Red rather than Silver, if you think you might get actuation by mistake?

Yeah, I would say so. It's probably the biggest most noticeable difference. At least it is to me. The Silvers are a little bit lighter. The actuation force is a little smaller, a little less with the Silver switches, but not huge. We're talking a difference of about five grams of force and that's a pretty small difference.

Yeah.

The difference between 45 and 40, that's one eighth, one ninth. That being said, on paper, it doesn't look like the difference between 2 millimeters and 1.1 or 1.2 would be, but it can feel like a big difference when you're typing.

Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Right. So it makes the switch more prone to accidental actuation.

Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Which of course begs the question. So what is the point? Why did they make it like that? What are the advantages of this high actuation point?

Right. Well, if you already type with a light touch, if you type with just kind a light little tap, tap, tap, you might like the switch because I kind of describe it as you can just almost float your fingers across the keyboard. You can type with a lot less, I don't know, finger up-down.

So you get this very kind of responsive experience?

Right.

Mm-hmm [affirmative].

And I know that in some avenues and some media, they are marketed towards gamers for their faster response. I am not a gamer, so I can't really speak to how that works in practice, but that is something you'll see in materials about them or when people talk about them sometimes, is that for some people they can provide a faster response.

Mm-hmm [affirmative]. I think another advantage of this high actuation point is that you can actually put in an O-ring or three. Right?

Right. Yeah. You know, depending on your keycaps and stuff. In a lot of them you can put in two, and in some of them you can put in three. Depending on your keycaps and the O-rings 'cause they come in different thicknesses. But yeah, if you want to make your keys feel shallower, then you can add some O-rings and, and make your bottom out distance shorter.

And my Silver switches would still work?

Right. Exactly.

Unlike say if I tried that with the Reds or something?

Right. You could, again, depending on the thickness of the O-rings, you could stack them high enough that you would not be able to push the key far enough to actuate it anymore.

Right. Yeah, no, it kind of sounds like I was saying that you can't use O-rings with Reds, which of course you can, right?

Right. Yeah. Totally.

But it's just that you can double up with Silver, but not always with Red. Right? I mean, at some point with a thick enough ring, because Silver has a higher actuation point then you can still use thick rings or multiple rings.

Right.

So is that the switch you recommend to people who are looking for a more laptop-like experience?

Yeah, it is. Now you're not going to be able to closely or super closely replicate that feeling, just because you're talking about very different types of keyboards. But, to me at least, the closest that you'll get to a laptop keyboard or a chiclet keyboard, your Apple Magic type thing, would be Silver switches with O-rings. Because you've got the very light, smooth feeling action. No clicks, no tactile bumps, fairly quiet. And then if you add O-rings, you've got a somewhat shallower, somewhat a shorter key travel, and you have the keys actuating very quickly when you press them down. So you only need to press them down a teeny bit.

Right. I gotta say, I love how you said, "The Apple Magic type thing." [laughing] We are clearly mechanical keyboard people, not...

Right.

...not huge fans of the "Magic type thing".

Right. [laughs] And I'm not a heavy user of Apple hardware, so I don't necessarily know what they call these things. I don't know what this...

They're flat. They're very flat.

Right. They're flat, and maybe the Magic ones are just the little white... Anyway.

No. That's great. No, I totally get that. That's, yeah. That's what we do.

Right. If you're

not into those very flat Magic things, then it is for you.

Right.

Cool. So we kinda mainly talked about Kailh Silver, I guess. Although many of these properties go for both. Right?

Right. The Kailh Silver and the Cherry MX Speed Silver are very similar, kind of analogous to Cherry MX Red and Kailh Box Red. They're pretty similar switches, the differences are subtle.

Even more similar, I would say. Right, because the key stem looks the same. Right? It's it's not a box...

Right.

...Kailh Silver. So maybe a little bit like Kailh Brown and MX Brown?

Actually, I find those two, even though they look like they would be very much the same, I find them more different.

Hmm.

But it's the same idea, you know, they're meant to be basically clones of each other.

Right. Right. Or rather, call a spade a spade. I mean, Kailh basically tried to clone the Cherry ones. Right? Cherry was first of course.

Right. Right. Yeah. It's Kailh's version of the Cherry switches.

Right, and in general, I guess now that we're touching on the clone aspect of it, I think there is this perception of clones as being knockoffs. I mean, it's practically synonymous and like, oh, lower quality. Right?

Right.

And I haven't found that to be the case when it comes to Kailh personally. Like, I think they are as good if not better than Cherry MX, which is kind of an interesting case I think, when it comes to a copy of something.

Right. Yeah. In some cases, you make a clone of a product so that you can offer it cheaper, but another reason is so that you can maybe put your own spin on it. Maybe make some improvements, and there are differences in the clones. In some cases they're really, really small differences, but they're there. The switches that we carry, both the Kailh and Cherry versions, none of them are 100% the same.

Right. And you know, I also think that one of the traits that make knockoffs poor quality is often intellectual property violations. Right? If something is patented and you know that they're going to come after you, then reputable manufacturers aren't gonna go and make a clone of it. Right?

Right.

So you always end up with these shoddy kind of fly-by-night type production. Whereas the Cherry patent on mechanical switches expired. So you can have big reputable manufacturer come and tell you, "Okay, this is Cherry compatible and nobody can come after us." Right?

Right.

So I think that's another big distinction when it comes to clones. Like these clones are okay, because there is no patent for these.

Right.

For, for MX like switches.

Right.

It expired. I mean, that's the point of it. Like the point of a patent, right, is that after a while everybody can use it. Like people sometimes miss that point, but the point is that it expires in the end.

Right. Yeah. And then the market opens up and you can get clones, you can get variations on a theme, things like that. And Kailh isn't the only ones making Cherry MX style switches. So I'm not sure, is it Gateron, is that how it's pronounced? This is one of those...

I say, I say Gateron. I don't know.

Okay. Right. It's one of those things that I see all the time, but I don't know that I've ever actually heard anyone say. [laughs]

Right.

They also make Cherry style switches, kind of switches in the same family, Red and Brown and Blue, et cetera. It's probably not universal, but if you see a switch with a color in its name, you can probably infer some characteristics of it. Like, most Red switches you see are going to be kind of light/medium weight linear switches.

Mm-hmm [affirmative].

And most Brown switches that you see are going to be fairly lightweight, tactile switches. And the Blue ones are going to be clicky.

And then people take it a step further and like make Pinks or Purples, which are kind of riffs on that same concept. Right?

Right. Right. Yeah. Navy and Jade and yeah.

Right. So, okay. So going back to Silvers then.

Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Is there anything we want to say? Well, I can think of one thing I actually want to say about the MX one, right? There is a key distinction between the Kailh Silver and the MX Silver that we carry.

Right. The Cherry version, the Cherry MX Speed Silver is not RGB compatible.

Mm-hmm [affirmative].

So we don't offer it for the Moonlander because it blocks the backlighting. You can get it for the ErgoDox EZ Original or Shine, or the Planck EZ standard. But yeah, no Glow or Moonlander.

Right.

That's the big obvious difference.

I think you had mentioned in the Red episode that the MX Reds feels slightly scratchier than the Kailh Reds, do you find it to be the same case with Kailh Silver versus MX Speed Silver, or are they both equally as smooth generally?

Maybe. Boy, that is a tough one because in that regard, I find them very close to the point that I wonder if any difference I might be feeling is just the power of suggestion.

Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Mm-hmm [affirmative].

They might be. There is a slight difference in the feel, and, yeah, I think that people could feel that as a scratchier/smoother, but that's a really small difference. I also find the Cherry to be just a tiny, tiny bit firmer feeling. Like just the tiniest bit.

Mm-hmm [affirmative].

They're both quite light; I tend to say easy to type on. They're not going to challenge your fingers, [laughs] which is a good thing for a lot of people because it also means that you may find your hands and fingers feeling less tired at the end of a day of typing. So they're both really light, but the Cherry is just a tiny bit less light and just a little bit crisper feeling, which is not really an easy thing to describe. I think it's kind of a bottom out thing that, to me, the Kailh Silver has a very slightly softer feeling bottom-out than the Cherry.

Mm-hmm [affirmative].

And I'm not sure what's behind that, maybe a difference in the springs.

It could be as simple as one or two more turns of the spring, right, or maybe a slightly different alloy mix in the spring or whatever. Right?

Right. Right.

Such fine tolerances. But I want to get back to a point you had mentioned, which is a very interesting thought. So you said the power of suggestion. Do you think that for many people using mechanical keyboards, how much of a factor is that with key switches? Like, let's say, somebody would tell me, or a customer, "Oh, this switch was a little scratchy, and then the customer goes in and types on it. Will it feel like, will they say, "Oh yeah, it's kind of scratchy." You know those experiments where they give you three glasses with the same exact wine.

[laughs] Right.

And one they say, "Oh, that's super expensive and one is very cheap." And you actually enjoy the more expensive one more. You know, those experiments?

Right. Yeah. Right. Or the ones where they add red food coloring to the white wines and-

Yeah, exactly. All, all that kind of...

[laughs] Yeah.

Predictably Irrational, Dan Ariely type of stuff. So would you say mechanical keyswitches are prone to that sort of subjectivity and bias in use?

Sure, but just kind of to the extent that anything else is. It's like, we're humans and that's the way we work. [laughs] If you read the description of a switch, which is necessarily going to be somewhat subjective, if you read it before you try it yourself, you're going to have in your head, "Oh, this switch is medium weight with a loud click that is high pitched and a crisp-feeling, tactile bump." That's what you're going to expect to feel, and that's kind of a powerful thing. It can take a lot to "break free of" is a little bit of an extreme way to say this, but to break free of that expectation.

Right. The point where, you know, I wonder this would be a fascinating experiment. Like, if you took two people and gave them both keyboards with Kailh Silver, and one of them, you told them, "This key is very prone to accidental actuation if you rest your fingers on it." And the other one, you didn't say anything about that. Who would get more...

Oh, right.

...who would get more mistypes? That would be fun to, to try someday. But I can see what you're saying. And in particular, I think it's interesting when talking to customers who say, for example, "Oh, I want this very specific keyswitch and because you don't carry it, I'm not going to buy a keyboard," which is 1) kind of funny because you can always get the switch and just put the switch into the board.

Right.

But, even if you don't go and get the switch, maybe you don't want the expense and all that, the keyboard is very expensive as it is, of course, I wonder if let's say you were after a particular linear switch, and you've got a slightly different linear switch that we, you know, that is available, how noticeable would the difference be? Really, you know?

Right, yeah. At the risk of sounding like your mom, they really are a sort of "try for yourself" sort of thing. I sound like I'm advising you to eat broccoli because come on, if you try it, you might really like it. [laughing]

That's definitely the quote for this episode. I mean, oh yeah. [laughing] That's right.

I'm not even a mom, so why I sound like this is a mystery. Maybe a better way to put it is to just kind of trust your own fingers and the way things feel to you. I mean, even if everything you read about a switch or, you know, a keyboard or this goes for anything. Even if everything you read about something says, "Oh, you're not going to like, it's terrible. I don't know why anyone would like this." If it feels good to you and if it works for you, who cares, that's the right thing for you.

Right. That makes total sense.

As with so many things, especially when there's a strong hobbyist culture, there are trends. I've seen in the last couple of years switches, pop up and become, you know, super popular. Like everyone wants this thing, it's the best thing. And then a couple months later, we don't hear anything about it anymore because the next best thing has come along. So there aren't, except when you're talking about quantifiable things like failure rates and stuff, there really aren't absolutes. There are people who swear by, you know, Kailh switches, Kailh are superior switches. And there are people who swear by Cherry switches. You know, "these are the originals. These guys know what they're doing." And you know what, okay!

Yeah. Like, it's not something that one viewpoint will be objectively the right one right? Ever.

Right. I'm going to betray a little bit my upbringing in the rural Midwest, it's like pickup trucks. There are the Chevy people and the Ford people.

Mm-hmm [affirmative].

And, you know?

That's a great analogy. No, actually I totally see that.

Right and where I live now, there are the Cubs people and the White Sox people. And you know what, you like what you like. If it works for you, it works for you. It doesn't matter if someone else says, "Oh no, that thing's terrible." It's terrible for them, and I'm sure that there's a good reason it's terrible for them. Or, on the other hand, if you read that something is the best thing ever and you try it and it doesn't work for you, well, you know, you're different than everyone else. [laughs]

This brings up a different question. Do you think that a switch tester, you know, one of those big boards that has a zillion different switches, one of each on it, but it's not actually a keyboard, so you can't see the actuation, you can just get the tactility, the feel of the switch. Is it a good idea? If I'm reading online or listening to this episode and just thinking and mulling over what switches should I get, will a switch test or help me make up my mind, or is it a waste of money?

I think in a lot of cases they can be really helpful. In my opinion, of course I think they're most helpful for people who don't have very much familiarity yet with mechanical keyboards and switches. I think they're most helpful in figuring out I guess, maybe the family of switch that you like best.

Tactile versus linear versus clicky?

Exactly. Or heavier versus lighter. They're not great for the finer points of very similar switches, like the Kailh Silver and the Cherry Speed Silver. One of each in a switch tester might not be super helpful for determining if you would like to type on a keyboard full of one or the other. 'Cause that's a very different experience obviously. So I think that they're really good for bigger picture things, but for a lot of people, they might not be super helpful for super fine distinctions.

Right. I think maybe when coupled with reading descriptions and watching videos, they're nice because you can kind of connect the video or the description or this episode, with what you're feeling.

Sure.

Physically and say oh they say it's smooth. Okay. This is what smooth feels like to them. But yeah, I see what you're saying about the finer points, especially that, for example, with speed switches, like the Silvers, the actuation point is such a big part of the experience. That's not something you can see at all with a tester.

Right. It's just a little plastic box. It's not hooked up to anything. So you're not going to be able to tell what the switch does, only what it feels like.

Right.

I've seen ones that are 64 and 72 or even more switches, that's too much. [laughs]

In what way?

To me, of course, not for everyone. Obviously they're sold, people buy them, people find them helpful. But, I think that they're just kind of overload. So, let's say you've got, five different types of Blue switches and of five different types of Brown switches and stuff. It gets hard to...

Like the distinction is not as clear. It's like they are too similar, like the switches are too similar to each other to justify five slightly different shades of Blue?

Right. I guess it would be cool if you know you want a Blue switch, but you're not sure which... Ooh, I'm a poet! [laughing] It would be cool to be able to buy a tester that has just five Blues and not the 100 switch tester with everything in the world. I don't know if that sort of thing exists.

Mm-hmm [affirmative].

I also find with my own experience with using switch testers you can get a little bit over-focused if that makes sense. It can be kind of like saying the same word over and over again till the word loses its meaning.

Oh, okay. I get it.

You're just like pushing a couple of switches over and over and over again until what you're doing is kind of meaningless and it becomes divorced from its context. I guess.

Because in the real world, like, of course I'm not going to like meditatively press down on this single key, I'm going to just be in a flurry of typing.

Right.

And so the actual motion and how much attention I pay to it will be very different.

Right.

Yeah. This is a really interesting discussion because I find that, I guess even as a society, we're very much focused on tools. Like, you can get a tester, but simply having a tester doesn't necessarily mean you're going to use it right. You know what I mean? Like the tools versus technique.

Right.

Versus like the understanding, okay here is the limitations of a tester, here's what it's going to be useful for. Here's what it's not so good for. That kind of distinction doesn't come with a tester. I mean, it comes with experience. Right?

Right. Right. I don't want to give the impression that I think they're not useful because they are, but they may be differently useful than you might expect is the way I would put it.

Hmm. Yeah, no, I see that for sure. Like for example, maybe you get a tester because you are intent on one very particular Purple switch or a Pink or whatever, and then the tester allows you to see, oh, actually the Silver can work for me. Like it's not that different, which could be a surprising outcome.

Right. Totally.

Awesome. Is there anything else you want to say about Silver?

I don't think so offhand, if you want something light, easy to type on, fairly quiet on its own, but O-rings will make them a bit quieter, then this is a good choice. It's a popular switch because it's nice. [laughs] It's pleasant and nice.

I'm just looking here actually, I'm navigating our website and I think it is the default linear switch that we... oh, no. That would be the Box Red. Okay. The Box Red is our default in here and not the Silver.

Okay.

But you say the Silver is still popular.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. I think, I think it's the kind of thing that the people who like it really, really like it.

Yeah. I really like it. Yeah.

Right. Yeah it has, [laughs] it has fans, I think. Maybe more than certain other types of switches.

Right. Cool. Awesome. Well, thank you very much.

Okay, sure. Thank you.

[laughs] Talk to you in the next one.

Yeah. Bye-bye.

Bye.