Copper
TactileDuration: 13m 23s
“Things are happening not in the order that I expect.”
Switches mentioned in this episode

Kailh copper
40±10gf
Actuation force1.1±0.3mm
Pre-travelTranscripts
Duration: 13m 23s

Erez
00m 05s
Hello, and welcome to Tisha Talks Switches. I'm Erez from ZSA and with me here today is Tisha, our resident switch expert and support lead. How are you today, Tisha?
Hello, and welcome to Tisha Talks Switches. I'm Erez from ZSA and with me here today is Tisha, our resident switch expert and support lead. How are you today, Tisha?

Tisha
00m 16s
Hi. I'm pretty good. How are you?
Hi. I'm pretty good. How are you?

Erez
00m 18s
I'm good. I'm drinking coffee with honey-
I'm good. I'm drinking coffee with honey-

Tisha
00m 21s
Oh, nice.
Oh, nice.

Erez
00m 21s
which is a very weird thing to be drinking. Like, have you ever tried coffee with honey?
which is a very weird thing to be drinking. Like, have you ever tried coffee with honey?

Tisha
00m 25s
I have had, I think not just by itself, but there's a coffee shop not too far away from here, and a nice like independent one who, you know, and they have, I think, excellent coffee, uh, who make a lavender honey latte.
I have had, I think not just by itself, but there's a coffee shop not too far away from here, and a nice like independent one who, you know, and they have, I think, excellent coffee, uh, who make a lavender honey latte.

Erez
00m 40s
That's... Yeah, that sounds good. Like I, I was- I was, I was making this thing and my wife like, "What are you doing?"
That's... Yeah, that sounds good. Like I, I was- I was, I was making this thing and my wife like, "What are you doing?"

Tisha
00m 46s
[laughs]
[laughs]

Erez
00m 48s
I said, "I don't know. I'm gonna try it out." There's some cream in there, too. So she's like, "It's like tea but with coffee." Anyways, yeah. But it works.
I said, "I don't know. I'm gonna try it out." There's some cream in there, too. So she's like, "It's like tea but with coffee." Anyways, yeah. But it works.

Tisha
00m 56s
Yeah, no. I think it sounds good. I, I have become kind of a honey convert as a, an adult. I didn't think much of it as a kid, but, um, I really like honey now. And so I think, I think it'd be good in coffee.
Yeah, no. I think it sounds good. I, I have become kind of a honey convert as a, an adult. I didn't think much of it as a kid, but, um, I really like honey now. And so I think, I think it'd be good in coffee.

Erez
01m 08s
Yeah, it works for me.
Yeah, it works for me.

Tisha
01m 09s
It's good in most things. [laughs]
It's good in most things. [laughs]

Erez
01m 12s
[laughs]
[laughs]

Tisha
01m 13s
I'm having just a regular old coffee.
I'm having just a regular old coffee.

Erez
01m 15s
Nice.
Nice.

Tisha
01m 17s
[laughs]
[laughs]

Erez
01m 17s
So, Kailh Copper. What can you tell us about it?
So, Kailh Copper. What can you tell us about it?

Tisha
01m 21s
Well, it is one of Kailh's Speed Switches and it's a tactile one. We've talked about other Kailh Speed Switches, the Silver, which is a linear, and the Gold and Thick Gold/Brown-- Bronze, excuse me, which are both clicky. So now this is their tactile one, meaning it's got the tactile bump but no click, and it's a Speed Switch which means it's got the very high actuation point. You barely have to press it down at all before it registers your key press.
Well, it is one of Kailh's Speed Switches and it's a tactile one. We've talked about other Kailh Speed Switches, the Silver, which is a linear, and the Gold and Thick Gold/Brown-- Bronze, excuse me, which are both clicky. So now this is their tactile one, meaning it's got the tactile bump but no click, and it's a Speed Switch which means it's got the very high actuation point. You barely have to press it down at all before it registers your key press.

Erez
01m 55s
Assuming before the tactile bump as well?
Assuming before the tactile bump as well?

Tisha
01m 57s
Right, right. Yeah, the difference there is small. To me, I have to be pressing the switch very slowly and deliberately to notice that, um, but that's just me. I know that there are some people who, in regular use find it a bit odd. I would say that most people, just in kind of regular typing, just text, email, whatever, I would say most people probably don't notice that. A few people will. I don't.
Right, right. Yeah, the difference there is small. To me, I have to be pressing the switch very slowly and deliberately to notice that, um, but that's just me. I know that there are some people who, in regular use find it a bit odd. I would say that most people, just in kind of regular typing, just text, email, whatever, I would say most people probably don't notice that. A few people will. I don't.

Erez
02m 23s
They will notice it via false actuations, basically? Just get characters when they're not expecting it?
They will notice it via false actuations, basically? Just get characters when they're not expecting it?

Tisha
02m 30s
There's that or for some people I guess it just as they're watching the you know, the output of their typing, I gue... I don't know. It's just kind of like a weird feeling that, oh, things are happening not, sort of, in the order that I expect. I'm seeing the character just before I feel the bump-
There's that or for some people I guess it just as they're watching the you know, the output of their typing, I gue... I don't know. It's just kind of like a weird feeling that, oh, things are happening not, sort of, in the order that I expect. I'm seeing the character just before I feel the bump-

Erez
02m 52s
Oh.
Oh.

Tisha
02m 52s
and they're expecting the other way around.
and they're expecting the other way around.

Erez
02m 54s
I get that. It's like when I'm... Sometimes I watch a video online or something, and then it seems to me like there's this tiny delay between the audio and video-
I get that. It's like when I'm... Sometimes I watch a video online or something, and then it seems to me like there's this tiny delay between the audio and video-

Tisha
03m 02s
[laughs] Yeah.
[laughs] Yeah.

Erez
03m 02s
especially when somebody's talking. I'm like, "Is it-
especially when somebody's talking. I'm like, "Is it-

Tisha
03m 04s
Right.
Right.

Erez
03m 04s
there? Is it not there?" Like the lips are not quite like it's, you know, milliseconds away. So that, that type of thing where like, uh, there's like a... Somethings weird, that kind of feeling?
there? Is it not there?" Like the lips are not quite like it's, you know, milliseconds away. So that, that type of thing where like, uh, there's like a... Somethings weird, that kind of feeling?

Tisha
03m 14s
Right. Well, I assume so. [laughs] I'm just kinda making assumptions, or kind of assuming what other people may feel because, like I said, I don't get this feeling, but I've heard from just a, a really small number of people who say, you know, "Oh my gosh. I don't like the fact that this actuates before the bump. It, you know, it seems weird to me." So that's what I, I think they're probably talking about, but I don't have like- yeah, I don't have like a firsthand account [laughs] I guess. But anyway, I guess if you already know that you don't like the really fast actuation, then this might not be for you. On, you know, on the other hand, if you know that you like Speed Switches, if you like that effect in gaming or if you like to type with a really light touch, that sort of thing, then this might be for you. It's a nice tactile kinda springy feeling switch.
Right. Well, I assume so. [laughs] I'm just kinda making assumptions, or kind of assuming what other people may feel because, like I said, I don't get this feeling, but I've heard from just a, a really small number of people who say, you know, "Oh my gosh. I don't like the fact that this actuates before the bump. It, you know, it seems weird to me." So that's what I, I think they're probably talking about, but I don't have like- yeah, I don't have like a firsthand account [laughs] I guess. But anyway, I guess if you already know that you don't like the really fast actuation, then this might not be for you. On, you know, on the other hand, if you know that you like Speed Switches, if you like that effect in gaming or if you like to type with a really light touch, that sort of thing, then this might be for you. It's a nice tactile kinda springy feeling switch.

Erez
04m 03s
Mm-hmm [ affirmative]. So it's actually rated, on our website at least, as 40. We're just talking before the episode. Some people say it's 40. Some people say it's 50 grams of force. But we took Kailh's spec as 40-
Mm-hmm [ affirmative]. So it's actually rated, on our website at least, as 40. We're just talking before the episode. Some people say it's 40. Some people say it's 50 grams of force. But we took Kailh's spec as 40-

Tisha
04m 15s
Right.
Right.

Erez
04m 16s
which it's 10 grams lighter than MX Brown.
which it's 10 grams lighter than MX Brown.

Tisha
04m 19s
Um, 15.
Um, 15.

Erez
04m 20s
15, mm-hmm [affirmative].
15, mm-hmm [affirmative].

Tisha
04m 21s
I think MX Brown is rated at, yeah, 45... Or no, five. I'm sorry.
I think MX Brown is rated at, yeah, 45... Or no, five. I'm sorry.

Erez
04m 25s
55, yeah.
55, yeah.

Tisha
04m 25s
I, I can't do math. The Brown switches are rated at 45-
I, I can't do math. The Brown switches are rated at 45-

Erez
04m 29s
Oh.
Oh.

Tisha
04m 29s
and yeah, sorry.
and yeah, sorry.

Erez
04m 31s
So just slightly lighter in rating?
So just slightly lighter in rating?

Tisha
04m 33s
Right, right. If you go to Kailh's, you know, Kaihua, the, the maker of the switch, if you go to their website, they have a few different numbers. [laughs]
Right, right. If you go to Kailh's, you know, Kaihua, the, the maker of the switch, if you go to their website, they have a few different numbers. [laughs]

Erez
04m 42s
On the same page.
On the same page.

Tisha
04m 43s
Uh, of... Right. What-
Uh, of... Right. What-

Erez
04m 44s
Like the, the, the- the page URL calls it purple- ... and then you go there and in the purple it's actually Kailh Copper. And then they say 40 grams, and in the same page they say 50 grams so-
Like the, the, the- the page URL calls it purple- ... and then you go there and in the purple it's actually Kailh Copper. And then they say 40 grams, and in the same page they say 50 grams so-

Tisha
04m 56s
Right. [laughs] so... Right. So, you know, I don't know if they... I don't know what that's about. [laughs]
Right. [laughs] so... Right. So, you know, I don't know if they... I don't know what that's about. [laughs]

Erez
05m 02s
[laughs]
[laughs]

Tisha
05m 04s
But in practical terms, [laughs] the other switch that we carry, which is rated at 40 grams of force, is the Kailh Silver. And, at least for me, the Kailh Copper feels really notably heavier. Part of that is because it's a tactile switch, so you've got the extra resistance from the bump. The other part, I used this word before, which is maybe not a super helpful description, but, it's just a springier feeling switch. Like, it feels... To me the, I think, firmness is more felt on the upstroke maybe than the downstroke. It's kind of like the spring recoils more strongly
But in practical terms, [laughs] the other switch that we carry, which is rated at 40 grams of force, is the Kailh Silver. And, at least for me, the Kailh Copper feels really notably heavier. Part of that is because it's a tactile switch, so you've got the extra resistance from the bump. The other part, I used this word before, which is maybe not a super helpful description, but, it's just a springier feeling switch. Like, it feels... To me the, I think, firmness is more felt on the upstroke maybe than the downstroke. It's kind of like the spring recoils more strongly

Erez
05m 49s
Hm. Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Hm. Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Tisha
05m 50s
So I'm just kind of alternating messing with Kailh Copper switches and Silver. Yeah, it's not super light feeling like the Silver. In fact, to me, I think it even feels a bit firmer than the Cherry MX Brown. I don't know that this is everyone's experience
So I'm just kind of alternating messing with Kailh Copper switches and Silver. Yeah, it's not super light feeling like the Silver. In fact, to me, I think it even feels a bit firmer than the Cherry MX Brown. I don't know that this is everyone's experience

Erez
06m 11s
Which would explain the 50 rating, then-
Which would explain the 50 rating, then-

Tisha
06m 14s
Right.
Right.

Erez
06m 14s
if MX Brown is 45. Mm-hmm [affirmative].
if MX Brown is 45. Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Tisha
06m 16s
Right. So it's a, kind of a light/medium tactile switch. And it has a, sort of a gentle rounded tactile bump, not a, not a sharp crisp one.
Right. So it's a, kind of a light/medium tactile switch. And it has a, sort of a gentle rounded tactile bump, not a, not a sharp crisp one.

Erez
06m 30s
Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Tisha
06m 30s
It's a, it's a pretty gentile tactile bump. I think if you want something [ laughs] less linear than a linear switch but with a bit more feedback to it, then this, this might be a, a good choice. You don't want something that you have to really push through like a Cherry MX Blue or something with the sort of sharper feeling tactile bump like the Kailh Box Brown I think. This has a bump that, to me, feels, I haven't looked recently at the actual force curves, but to me, the feeling, the tactility, the tactile-ness, [laughs] um, is more similar to Cherry MX Brown than it is to Kailh Box Brown.
It's a, it's a pretty gentile tactile bump. I think if you want something [ laughs] less linear than a linear switch but with a bit more feedback to it, then this, this might be a, a good choice. You don't want something that you have to really push through like a Cherry MX Blue or something with the sort of sharper feeling tactile bump like the Kailh Box Brown I think. This has a bump that, to me, feels, I haven't looked recently at the actual force curves, but to me, the feeling, the tactility, the tactile-ness, [laughs] um, is more similar to Cherry MX Brown than it is to Kailh Box Brown.

Erez
07m 18s
Mm. Okay. So then you don't... So again, it, it actuates before the bump, but the bump itself is somewhat, I don't know how to call it, like rounded or more refined. Like it's not a sharp thing, but it's, I don't know, gentle I guess?
Mm. Okay. So then you don't... So again, it, it actuates before the bump, but the bump itself is somewhat, I don't know how to call it, like rounded or more refined. Like it's not a sharp thing, but it's, I don't know, gentle I guess?

Tisha
07m 38s
Right. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's what I tend to say. It's a gentle rounded bump, kinda more like a l-... [ laughs] more like a low hill than a steep little point.
Right. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's what I tend to say. It's a gentle rounded bump, kinda more like a l-... [ laughs] more like a low hill than a steep little point.

Erez
07m 51s
Is this a good switch for Zoom calls and such?
Is this a good switch for Zoom calls and such?

Tisha
07m 54s
I would say it's okay. it's not as quiet as a linear switch. It's... The sound quality is different than something like Cherry MX Brown, but it's probably not really quieter or louder.
I would say it's okay. it's not as quiet as a linear switch. It's... The sound quality is different than something like Cherry MX Brown, but it's probably not really quieter or louder.

Erez
08m 10s
Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Tisha
08m 10s
I don't know if you can hear this. [laughs]
I don't know if you can hear this. [laughs]

Erez
08m 13s
Not really, actually.
Not really, actually.

Tisha
08m 14s
Okay. So, I have the, you know, the kind of the headset mounted mic and, you know, uh, if I'm typing along with a mic not super close to the keyboard, and this is Kailh Copper...
Okay. So, I have the, you know, the kind of the headset mounted mic and, you know, uh, if I'm typing along with a mic not super close to the keyboard, and this is Kailh Copper...

Erez
08m 25s
I can hear something, but very subtle.
I can hear something, but very subtle.

Tisha
08m 27s
Right. So yeah, if, I think if your mic isn't real close to your keyboard, then that might be okay.
Right. So yeah, if, I think if your mic isn't real close to your keyboard, then that might be okay.

Erez
08m 32s
Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Tisha
08m 33s
If your mic is close, then it might be a little loud.
If your mic is close, then it might be a little loud.

Erez
08m 38s
That, that actually still sounds okay.
That, that actually still sounds okay.

Tisha
08m 40s
Oh, okay.
Oh, okay.

Erez
08m 40s
There's nothing grating or high pitched about it. I, I could hear it, but...
There's nothing grating or high pitched about it. I, I could hear it, but...

Tisha
08m 44s
It is a lower, slightly lower pitched sound than Cherry MX Brown.
It is a lower, slightly lower pitched sound than Cherry MX Brown.

Erez
08m 51s
Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Tisha
08m 52s
So yeah, it might not be too bad, depending on your setup and the, I don't know, irritability levels of your co-workers. [laughs]
So yeah, it might not be too bad, depending on your setup and the, I don't know, irritability levels of your co-workers. [laughs]

Erez
09m 03s
Right. Do you have a sense of who tends to like this switch? Which, which type of user tends to go for a Kailh Copper?
Right. Do you have a sense of who tends to like this switch? Which, which type of user tends to go for a Kailh Copper?

Tisha
09m 11s
That is... That's a good question. I think it might be someone who likes... Maybe someone who wants to be able to type with a really light touch because it, even though this switch feels kinda maybe firmer than its description, because of the high actuation point, you barely need to tap it, you know?
That is... That's a good question. I think it might be someone who likes... Maybe someone who wants to be able to type with a really light touch because it, even though this switch feels kinda maybe firmer than its description, because of the high actuation point, you barely need to tap it, you know?

Erez
09m 33s
Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Tisha
09m 33s
So, if you wanna type with a light touch but, you want something with a little more, I don't know, well, you know, feedback something that resists your fingers a bit more than Kailh Silver, than maybe that, I think... I could be full if it here, [laughs] so I'll, uh, give that warning up front. But, occasionally people ask if, a tactile switch might help them decrease their, it might help them avoid bottoming out-
So, if you wanna type with a light touch but, you want something with a little more, I don't know, well, you know, feedback something that resists your fingers a bit more than Kailh Silver, than maybe that, I think... I could be full if it here, [laughs] so I'll, uh, give that warning up front. But, occasionally people ask if, a tactile switch might help them decrease their, it might help them avoid bottoming out-

Erez
10m 02s
Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Tisha
10m 03s
some. And in general, my opinion is, for most people, probably not because the bumps aren't... they don't stop your fingers. Our tendency is just to push through.
some. And in general, my opinion is, for most people, probably not because the bumps aren't... they don't stop your fingers. Our tendency is just to push through.

Erez
10m 15s
Right.
Right.

Tisha
10m 16s
But with the Copper, and this applies, again, if you're a light touch typist, if you... Then I think in this case it might help you not bottom out because the actuation comes before the bump. If you just tap, tap, tap really lightly and stop when you feel resistance, not when you've pushed all the way through, then it might help you not bottom out if that makes sense.
But with the Copper, and this applies, again, if you're a light touch typist, if you... Then I think in this case it might help you not bottom out because the actuation comes before the bump. If you just tap, tap, tap really lightly and stop when you feel resistance, not when you've pushed all the way through, then it might help you not bottom out if that makes sense.

Erez
10m 39s
Right. Yeah. I get it. I get it. Though I would guess that if you are a light typist anyway, then maybe bottoming out is not a huge issue for you.
Right. Yeah. I get it. I get it. Though I would guess that if you are a light typist anyway, then maybe bottoming out is not a huge issue for you.

Tisha
10m 50s
That's true, although it would be a lot easier with a linear switch. Like if you-
That's true, although it would be a lot easier with a linear switch. Like if you-

Erez
10m 55s
Mm, right.
Mm, right.

Tisha
10m 56s
right, went with a Kailh Silver, it's, you know, super easy to press. There's so little resistance, I guess- [laughs]
right, went with a Kailh Silver, it's, you know, super easy to press. There's so little resistance, I guess- [laughs]

Erez
11m 02s
Yep. Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Yep. Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Tisha
11m 03s
um, that it's easy to just push until it stops 'cause-
um, that it's easy to just push until it stops 'cause-

Erez
11m 07s
Yeah, yeah. I, I know exactly what you mean.
Yeah, yeah. I, I know exactly what you mean.

Tisha
11m 08s
Yeah.
Yeah.

Erez
11m 09s
When I use Silver then I really I tend to use the bottom out as my feedback almost.
When I use Silver then I really I tend to use the bottom out as my feedback almost.

Tisha
11m 13s
[laughs]
[laughs]

Erez
11m 13s
It, it kinda almost becomes my tactile feedback.
It, it kinda almost becomes my tactile feedback.

Tisha
11m 17s
Right. Yeah, that makes sense. Kailh Copper is kind of, for some reason, a harder switch for me to talk about. It's a little bit of an odd duck to me, I think because of the combination of Speed Switch and tactile.
Right. Yeah, that makes sense. Kailh Copper is kind of, for some reason, a harder switch for me to talk about. It's a little bit of an odd duck to me, I think because of the combination of Speed Switch and tactile.

Erez
11m 33s
Which Kailh Brown, Kailh Brown is not a Speed Switch is it?
Which Kailh Brown, Kailh Brown is not a Speed Switch is it?

Tisha
11m 37s
Right. The Box, Kailh Box Brown is, is not. It's a, a standard sort of actuates about halfway-
Right. The Box, Kailh Box Brown is, is not. It's a, a standard sort of actuates about halfway-

Erez
11m 44s
Right.
Right.

Tisha
11m 45s
switch. Right.
switch. Right.

Erez
11m 46s
I was just strolling up in our previous episode notes here. But yeah, that's just, it's just a tactile switch. There's no, uh-
I was just strolling up in our previous episode notes here. But yeah, that's just, it's just a tactile switch. There's no, uh-

Tisha
11m 53s
Right.
Right.

Erez
11m 54s
Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Tisha
11m 55s
Right. And I think also what makes it trickier for me to talk about or think about is the low force rating isn't necessarily reflected, um, [ laughs] in, I don't know, reality and practical terms, at least for me.
Right. And I think also what makes it trickier for me to talk about or think about is the low force rating isn't necessarily reflected, um, [ laughs] in, I don't know, reality and practical terms, at least for me.

Erez
12m 10s
I hear. We should probably interview Kailh and ask them about that. [laughs]
I hear. We should probably interview Kailh and ask them about that. [laughs]

Tisha
12m 14s
[laughs] Right, yeah.
[laughs] Right, yeah.

Erez
12m 14s
Which is the right number? I'll, I, I might do that.
Which is the right number? I'll, I, I might do that.

Tisha
12m 17s
Right. And also, you know, these things feel, feel differently to everyone. I think that some people do find that they feel lighter than, for instance, a Cherry MX Brown. People's experiences of this switch might be more varied than some other switches-
Right. And also, you know, these things feel, feel differently to everyone. I think that some people do find that they feel lighter than, for instance, a Cherry MX Brown. People's experiences of this switch might be more varied than some other switches-

Erez
12m 33s
Hm.
Hm.

Tisha
12m 33s
I think. I'm not sure why, but that's my sort of vague impression from what I've heard people say about this switch.
I think. I'm not sure why, but that's my sort of vague impression from what I've heard people say about this switch.

Erez
12m 41s
Got it. Would you say it's relatively popular or is it...
Got it. Would you say it's relatively popular or is it...

Tisha
12m 46s
Moderately so, yeah.
Moderately so, yeah.

Erez
12m 49s
Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Tisha
12m 49s
It's not a big biggie like, you know, Cherry MX Brown is a, is a big one.
It's not a big biggie like, you know, Cherry MX Brown is a, is a big one.

Erez
12m 55s
Oh, yeah.
Oh, yeah.

Tisha
12m 55s
And, you know, Kailh Silver is a pretty big one, too.
And, you know, Kailh Silver is a pretty big one, too.

Erez
12m 57s
Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Tisha
12m 57s
And I have to say the, now that the Cherry MX Silent Red is available from Moonlander, that's become a pretty big one, too.
And I have to say the, now that the Cherry MX Silent Red is available from Moonlander, that's become a pretty big one, too.

Erez
13m 06s
Mm. Awesome. Anything else we wanna say about the Copper?
Mm. Awesome. Anything else we wanna say about the Copper?

Tisha
13m 10s
Hm. [ laughs] I don't think I can think of anything else. Yeah, it's kinda different. But, I think especially if you know you like the Speed Switch type of switch, it's something that you might wanna think about.
Hm. [ laughs] I don't think I can think of anything else. Yeah, it's kinda different. But, I think especially if you know you like the Speed Switch type of switch, it's something that you might wanna think about.

Erez
13m 23s
Awesome. Well, thank you very much.
Awesome. Well, thank you very much.

Tisha
13m 25s
Sure. Thank you.
Sure. Thank you.

Erez
13m 26s
You have a good one.
You have a good one.

Tisha
13m 27s
[laughs] You, too.
[laughs] You, too.