Tisha Talks Switches
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Copper

Tactile
Duration: 13m 18s

Things are happening not in the order that I expect.

Switches mentioned in this episode

Kailh copper

40±10gf

Actuation force

1.1±0.3mm

Pre-travel

Transcripts

Duration: 13m 18s
Erez
00m 00s
Hello, and welcome to Tisha Talks Switches. I'm Erez from ZSA and with me here today is Tisha, our resident switch expert and support lead. How are you today, Tisha?
Hello, and welcome to Tisha Talks Switches. I'm Erez from ZSA and with me here today is Tisha, our resident switch expert and support lead. How are you today, Tisha?
Tisha
00m 06s
Hi. I'm pretty good. How are you?
Hi. I'm pretty good. How are you?
Erez
00m 07s
I'm good. I'm drinking coffee with honey-
I'm good. I'm drinking coffee with honey-
Tisha
00m 09s
Oh, nice.
Oh, nice.
Erez
00m 09s
which is a very weird thing to be drinking. Like, have you ever tried coffee with honey?
which is a very weird thing to be drinking. Like, have you ever tried coffee with honey?
Tisha
00m 12s
I have had, I think not just by itself, but there's a coffee shop not too far away from here, and a nice like independent one who, you know, and they have, I think, excellent coffee, uh, who make a lavender honey latte.
I have had, I think not just by itself, but there's a coffee shop not too far away from here, and a nice like independent one who, you know, and they have, I think, excellent coffee, uh, who make a lavender honey latte.
Erez
00m 21s
That's... Yeah, that sounds good. Like I, I was- I was, I was making this thing and my wife like, "What are you doing?"
That's... Yeah, that sounds good. Like I, I was- I was, I was making this thing and my wife like, "What are you doing?"
Tisha
00m 24s
[laughs]
[laughs]
Erez
00m 25s
I said, "I don't know. I'm gonna try it out." There's some cream in there, too. So she's like, "It's like tea but with coffee." Anyways, yeah. But it works.
I said, "I don't know. I'm gonna try it out." There's some cream in there, too. So she's like, "It's like tea but with coffee." Anyways, yeah. But it works.
Tisha
00m 30s
Yeah, no. I think it sounds good. I, I have become kind of a honey convert as a, an adult. I didn't think much of it as a kid, but, um, I really like honey now. And so I think, I think it'd be good in coffee.
Yeah, no. I think it sounds good. I, I have become kind of a honey convert as a, an adult. I didn't think much of it as a kid, but, um, I really like honey now. And so I think, I think it'd be good in coffee.
Erez
00m 37s
Yeah, it works for me.
Yeah, it works for me.
Tisha
00m 38s
It's good in most things. [laughs]
It's good in most things. [laughs]
Erez
00m 40s
[laughs]
[laughs]
Tisha
00m 40s
I'm having just a regular old coffee.
I'm having just a regular old coffee.
Erez
00m 41s
Nice.
Nice.
Tisha
00m 43s
[laughs]
[laughs]
Erez
00m 43s
So, Kailh Copper. What can you tell us about it?
So, Kailh Copper. What can you tell us about it?
Tisha
00m 45s
Well, it is one of Kailh's Speed Switches and it's a tactile one. We've talked about other Kailh Speed Switches, the Silver, which is a linear, and the Gold and Thick Gold/Brown-- Bronze, excuse me, which are both clicky. So now this is their tactile one, meaning it's got the tactile bump but no click, and it's a Speed Switch which means it's got the very high actuation point. You barely have to press it down at all before it registers your key press.
Well, it is one of Kailh's Speed Switches and it's a tactile one. We've talked about other Kailh Speed Switches, the Silver, which is a linear, and the Gold and Thick Gold/Brown-- Bronze, excuse me, which are both clicky. So now this is their tactile one, meaning it's got the tactile bump but no click, and it's a Speed Switch which means it's got the very high actuation point. You barely have to press it down at all before it registers your key press.
Erez
01m 05s
Assuming before the tactile bump as well?
Assuming before the tactile bump as well?
Tisha
01m 07s
Right, right. Yeah, the difference there is small. To me, I have to be pressing the switch very slowly and deliberately to notice that, um, but that's just me. I know that there are some people who, in regular use find it a bit odd. I would say that most people, just in kind of regular typing, just text, email, whatever, I would say most people probably don't notice that. A few people will. I don't.
Right, right. Yeah, the difference there is small. To me, I have to be pressing the switch very slowly and deliberately to notice that, um, but that's just me. I know that there are some people who, in regular use find it a bit odd. I would say that most people, just in kind of regular typing, just text, email, whatever, I would say most people probably don't notice that. A few people will. I don't.
Erez
01m 22s
They will notice it via false actuations, basically? Just get characters when they're not expecting it?
They will notice it via false actuations, basically? Just get characters when they're not expecting it?
Tisha
01m 26s
There's that or for some people I guess it just as they're watching the you know, the output of their typing, I gue... I don't know. It's just kind of like a weird feeling that, oh, things are happening not, sort of, in the order that I expect. I'm seeing the character just before I feel the bump-
There's that or for some people I guess it just as they're watching the you know, the output of their typing, I gue... I don't know. It's just kind of like a weird feeling that, oh, things are happening not, sort of, in the order that I expect. I'm seeing the character just before I feel the bump-
Erez
01m 39s
Oh.
Oh.
Tisha
01m 39s
and they're expecting the other way around.
and they're expecting the other way around.
Erez
01m 40s
I get that. It's like when I'm... Sometimes I watch a video online or something, and then it seems to me like there's this tiny delay between the audio and video-
I get that. It's like when I'm... Sometimes I watch a video online or something, and then it seems to me like there's this tiny delay between the audio and video-
Tisha
01m 45s
[laughs] Yeah.
[laughs] Yeah.
Erez
01m 45s
especially when somebody's talking. I'm like, "Is it-
especially when somebody's talking. I'm like, "Is it-
Tisha
01m 47s
Right.
Right.
Erez
01m 47s
there? Is it not there?" Like the lips are not quite like it's, you know, milliseconds away. So that, that type of thing where like, uh, there's like a... Somethings weird, that kind of feeling?
there? Is it not there?" Like the lips are not quite like it's, you know, milliseconds away. So that, that type of thing where like, uh, there's like a... Somethings weird, that kind of feeling?
Tisha
01m 53s
Right. Well, I assume so. [laughs] I'm just kinda making assumptions, or kind of assuming what other people may feel because, like I said, I don't get this feeling, but I've heard from just a, a really small number of people who say, you know, "Oh my gosh. I don't like the fact that this actuates before the bump. It, you know, it seems weird to me." So that's what I, I think they're probably talking about, but I don't have like- yeah, I don't have like a firsthand account [laughs] I guess. But anyway, I guess if you already know that you don't like the really fast actuation, then this might not be for you. On, you know, on the other hand, if you know that you like Speed Switches, if you like that effect in gaming or if you like to type with a really light touch, that sort of thing, then this might be for you. It's a nice tactile kinda springy feeling switch.
Right. Well, I assume so. [laughs] I'm just kinda making assumptions, or kind of assuming what other people may feel because, like I said, I don't get this feeling, but I've heard from just a, a really small number of people who say, you know, "Oh my gosh. I don't like the fact that this actuates before the bump. It, you know, it seems weird to me." So that's what I, I think they're probably talking about, but I don't have like- yeah, I don't have like a firsthand account [laughs] I guess. But anyway, I guess if you already know that you don't like the really fast actuation, then this might not be for you. On, you know, on the other hand, if you know that you like Speed Switches, if you like that effect in gaming or if you like to type with a really light touch, that sort of thing, then this might be for you. It's a nice tactile kinda springy feeling switch.
Erez
02m 22s
Mm-hmm [ affirmative]. So it's actually rated, on our website at least, as 40. We're just talking before the episode. Some people say it's 40. Some people say it's 50 grams of force. But we took Kailh's spec as 40-
Mm-hmm [ affirmative]. So it's actually rated, on our website at least, as 40. We're just talking before the episode. Some people say it's 40. Some people say it's 50 grams of force. But we took Kailh's spec as 40-
Tisha
02m 29s
Right.
Right.
Erez
02m 29s
which it's 10 grams lighter than MX Brown.
which it's 10 grams lighter than MX Brown.
Tisha
02m 31s
Um, 15.
Um, 15.
Erez
02m 32s
15, mm-hmm [affirmative].
15, mm-hmm [affirmative].
Tisha
02m 32s
I think MX Brown is rated at, yeah, 45... Or no, five. I'm sorry.
I think MX Brown is rated at, yeah, 45... Or no, five. I'm sorry.
Erez
02m 35s
55, yeah.
55, yeah.
Tisha
02m 35s
I, I can't do math. The Brown switches are rated at 45-
I, I can't do math. The Brown switches are rated at 45-
Erez
02m 37s
Oh.
Oh.
Tisha
02m 37s
and yeah, sorry.
and yeah, sorry.
Erez
02m 38s
So just slightly lighter in rating?
So just slightly lighter in rating?
Tisha
02m 40s
Right, right. If you go to Kailh's, you know, Kaihua, the, the maker of the switch, if you go to their website, they have a few different numbers. [laughs]
Right, right. If you go to Kailh's, you know, Kaihua, the, the maker of the switch, if you go to their website, they have a few different numbers. [laughs]
Erez
02m 45s
On the same page.
On the same page.
Tisha
02m 46s
Uh, of... Right. What-
Uh, of... Right. What-
Erez
02m 46s
Like the, the, the- the page URL calls it purple- ... and then you go there and in the purple it's actually Kailh Copper. And then they say 40 grams, and in the same page they say 50 grams so-
Like the, the, the- the page URL calls it purple- ... and then you go there and in the purple it's actually Kailh Copper. And then they say 40 grams, and in the same page they say 50 grams so-
Tisha
02m 53s
Right. [laughs] so... Right. So, you know, I don't know if they... I don't know what that's about. [laughs]
Right. [laughs] so... Right. So, you know, I don't know if they... I don't know what that's about. [laughs]
Erez
02m 57s
[laughs]
[laughs]
Tisha
02m 58s
But in practical terms, [laughs] the other switch that we carry, which is rated at 40 grams of force, is the Kailh Silver. And, at least for me, the Kailh Copper feels really notably heavier. Part of that is because it's a tactile switch, so you've got the extra resistance from the bump. The other part, I used this word before, which is maybe not a super helpful description, but, it's just a springier feeling switch. Like, it feels... To me the, I think, firmness is more felt on the upstroke maybe than the downstroke. It's kind of like the spring recoils more strongly
But in practical terms, [laughs] the other switch that we carry, which is rated at 40 grams of force, is the Kailh Silver. And, at least for me, the Kailh Copper feels really notably heavier. Part of that is because it's a tactile switch, so you've got the extra resistance from the bump. The other part, I used this word before, which is maybe not a super helpful description, but, it's just a springier feeling switch. Like, it feels... To me the, I think, firmness is more felt on the upstroke maybe than the downstroke. It's kind of like the spring recoils more strongly
Erez
03m 25s
Hm. Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Hm. Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Tisha
03m 25s
So I'm just kind of alternating messing with Kailh Copper switches and Silver. Yeah, it's not super light feeling like the Silver. In fact, to me, I think it even feels a bit firmer than the Cherry MX Brown. I don't know that this is everyone's experience
So I'm just kind of alternating messing with Kailh Copper switches and Silver. Yeah, it's not super light feeling like the Silver. In fact, to me, I think it even feels a bit firmer than the Cherry MX Brown. I don't know that this is everyone's experience
Erez
03m 38s
Which would explain the 50 rating, then-
Which would explain the 50 rating, then-
Tisha
03m 40s
Right.
Right.
Erez
03m 40s
if MX Brown is 45. Mm-hmm [affirmative].
if MX Brown is 45. Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Tisha
03m 41s
Right. So it's a, kind of a light/medium tactile switch. And it has a, sort of a gentle rounded tactile bump, not a, not a sharp crisp one.
Right. So it's a, kind of a light/medium tactile switch. And it has a, sort of a gentle rounded tactile bump, not a, not a sharp crisp one.
Erez
03m 49s
Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Tisha
03m 50s
It's a, it's a pretty gentile tactile bump. I think if you want something [ laughs] less linear than a linear switch but with a bit more feedback to it, then this, this might be a, a good choice. You don't want something that you have to really push through like a Cherry MX Blue or something with the sort of sharper feeling tactile bump like the Kailh Box Brown I think. This has a bump that, to me, feels, I haven't looked recently at the actual force curves, but to me, the feeling, the tactility, the tactile-ness, [laughs] um, is more similar to Cherry MX Brown than it is to Kailh Box Brown.
It's a, it's a pretty gentile tactile bump. I think if you want something [ laughs] less linear than a linear switch but with a bit more feedback to it, then this, this might be a, a good choice. You don't want something that you have to really push through like a Cherry MX Blue or something with the sort of sharper feeling tactile bump like the Kailh Box Brown I think. This has a bump that, to me, feels, I haven't looked recently at the actual force curves, but to me, the feeling, the tactility, the tactile-ness, [laughs] um, is more similar to Cherry MX Brown than it is to Kailh Box Brown.
Erez
04m 18s
Mm. Okay. So then you don't... So again, it, it actuates before the bump, but the bump itself is somewhat, I don't know how to call it, like rounded or more refined. Like it's not a sharp thing, but it's, I don't know, gentle I guess?
Mm. Okay. So then you don't... So again, it, it actuates before the bump, but the bump itself is somewhat, I don't know how to call it, like rounded or more refined. Like it's not a sharp thing, but it's, I don't know, gentle I guess?
Tisha
04m 30s
Right. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's what I tend to say. It's a gentle rounded bump, kinda more like a l-... [ laughs] more like a low hill than a steep little point.
Right. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's what I tend to say. It's a gentle rounded bump, kinda more like a l-... [ laughs] more like a low hill than a steep little point.
Erez
04m 37s
Is this a good switch for Zoom calls and such?
Is this a good switch for Zoom calls and such?
Tisha
04m 39s
I would say it's okay. it's not as quiet as a linear switch. It's... The sound quality is different than something like Cherry MX Brown, but it's probably not really quieter or louder.
I would say it's okay. it's not as quiet as a linear switch. It's... The sound quality is different than something like Cherry MX Brown, but it's probably not really quieter or louder.
Erez
04m 49s
Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Tisha
04m 49s
I don't know if you can hear this. [laughs]
I don't know if you can hear this. [laughs]
Erez
04m 50s
Not really, actually.
Not really, actually.
Tisha
04m 51s
Okay. So, I have the, you know, the kind of the headset mounted mic and, you know, uh, if I'm typing along with a mic not super close to the keyboard, and this is Kailh Copper...
Okay. So, I have the, you know, the kind of the headset mounted mic and, you know, uh, if I'm typing along with a mic not super close to the keyboard, and this is Kailh Copper...
Erez
04m 58s
I can hear something, but very subtle.
I can hear something, but very subtle.
Tisha
04m 59s
Right. So yeah, if, I think if your mic isn't real close to your keyboard, then that might be okay.
Right. So yeah, if, I think if your mic isn't real close to your keyboard, then that might be okay.
Erez
05m 02s
Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Tisha
05m 03s
If your mic is close, then it might be a little loud.
If your mic is close, then it might be a little loud.
Erez
05m 05s
That, that actually still sounds okay.
That, that actually still sounds okay.
Tisha
05m 06s
Oh, okay.
Oh, okay.
Erez
05m 06s
There's nothing grating or high pitched about it. I, I could hear it, but...
There's nothing grating or high pitched about it. I, I could hear it, but...
Tisha
05m 09s
It is a lower, slightly lower pitched sound than Cherry MX Brown.
It is a lower, slightly lower pitched sound than Cherry MX Brown.
Erez
05m 13s
Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Tisha
05m 14s
So yeah, it might not be too bad, depending on your setup and the, I don't know, irritability levels of your co-workers. [laughs]
So yeah, it might not be too bad, depending on your setup and the, I don't know, irritability levels of your co-workers. [laughs]
Erez
05m 20s
Right. Do you have a sense of who tends to like this switch? Which, which type of user tends to go for a Kailh Copper?
Right. Do you have a sense of who tends to like this switch? Which, which type of user tends to go for a Kailh Copper?
Tisha
05m 25s
That is... That's a good question. I think it might be someone who likes... Maybe someone who wants to be able to type with a really light touch because it, even though this switch feels kinda maybe firmer than its description, because of the high actuation point, you barely need to tap it, you know?
That is... That's a good question. I think it might be someone who likes... Maybe someone who wants to be able to type with a really light touch because it, even though this switch feels kinda maybe firmer than its description, because of the high actuation point, you barely need to tap it, you know?
Erez
05m 38s
Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Tisha
05m 38s
So, if you wanna type with a light touch but, you want something with a little more, I don't know, well, you know, feedback something that resists your fingers a bit more than Kailh Silver, than maybe that, I think... I could be full if it here, [laughs] so I'll, uh, give that warning up front. But, occasionally people ask if, a tactile switch might help them decrease their, it might help them avoid bottoming out-
So, if you wanna type with a light touch but, you want something with a little more, I don't know, well, you know, feedback something that resists your fingers a bit more than Kailh Silver, than maybe that, I think... I could be full if it here, [laughs] so I'll, uh, give that warning up front. But, occasionally people ask if, a tactile switch might help them decrease their, it might help them avoid bottoming out-
Erez
05m 56s
Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Tisha
05m 56s
some. And in general, my opinion is, for most people, probably not because the bumps aren't... they don't stop your fingers. Our tendency is just to push through.
some. And in general, my opinion is, for most people, probably not because the bumps aren't... they don't stop your fingers. Our tendency is just to push through.
Erez
06m 03s
Right.
Right.
Tisha
06m 04s
But with the Copper, and this applies, again, if you're a light touch typist, if you... Then I think in this case it might help you not bottom out because the actuation comes before the bump. If you just tap, tap, tap really lightly and stop when you feel resistance, not when you've pushed all the way through, then it might help you not bottom out if that makes sense.
But with the Copper, and this applies, again, if you're a light touch typist, if you... Then I think in this case it might help you not bottom out because the actuation comes before the bump. If you just tap, tap, tap really lightly and stop when you feel resistance, not when you've pushed all the way through, then it might help you not bottom out if that makes sense.
Erez
06m 17s
Right. Yeah. I get it. I get it. Though I would guess that if you are a light typist anyway, then maybe bottoming out is not a huge issue for you.
Right. Yeah. I get it. I get it. Though I would guess that if you are a light typist anyway, then maybe bottoming out is not a huge issue for you.
Tisha
06m 24s
That's true, although it would be a lot easier with a linear switch. Like if you-
That's true, although it would be a lot easier with a linear switch. Like if you-
Erez
06m 27s
Mm, right.
Mm, right.
Tisha
06m 28s
right, went with a Kailh Silver, it's, you know, super easy to press. There's so little resistance, I guess- [laughs]
right, went with a Kailh Silver, it's, you know, super easy to press. There's so little resistance, I guess- [laughs]
Erez
06m 31s
Yep. Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Yep. Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Tisha
06m 32s
um, that it's easy to just push until it stops 'cause-
um, that it's easy to just push until it stops 'cause-
Erez
06m 34s
Yeah, yeah. I, I know exactly what you mean.
Yeah, yeah. I, I know exactly what you mean.
Tisha
06m 35s
Yeah.
Yeah.
Erez
06m 35s
When I use Silver then I really I tend to use the bottom out as my feedback almost.
When I use Silver then I really I tend to use the bottom out as my feedback almost.
Tisha
06m 38s
[laughs]
[laughs]
Erez
06m 38s
It, it kinda almost becomes my tactile feedback.
It, it kinda almost becomes my tactile feedback.
Tisha
06m 40s
Right. Yeah, that makes sense. Kailh Copper is kind of, for some reason, a harder switch for me to talk about. It's a little bit of an odd duck to me, I think because of the combination of Speed Switch and tactile.
Right. Yeah, that makes sense. Kailh Copper is kind of, for some reason, a harder switch for me to talk about. It's a little bit of an odd duck to me, I think because of the combination of Speed Switch and tactile.
Erez
06m 50s
Which Kailh Brown, Kailh Brown is not a Speed Switch is it?
Which Kailh Brown, Kailh Brown is not a Speed Switch is it?
Tisha
06m 52s
Right. The Box, Kailh Box Brown is, is not. It's a, a standard sort of actuates about halfway-
Right. The Box, Kailh Box Brown is, is not. It's a, a standard sort of actuates about halfway-
Erez
06m 56s
Right.
Right.
Tisha
06m 57s
switch. Right.
switch. Right.
Erez
06m 58s
I was just strolling up in our previous episode notes here. But yeah, that's just, it's just a tactile switch. There's no, uh-
I was just strolling up in our previous episode notes here. But yeah, that's just, it's just a tactile switch. There's no, uh-
Tisha
07m 02s
Right.
Right.
Erez
07m 02s
Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Tisha
07m 03s
Right. And I think also what makes it trickier for me to talk about or think about is the low force rating isn't necessarily reflected, um, [ laughs] in, I don't know, reality and practical terms, at least for me.
Right. And I think also what makes it trickier for me to talk about or think about is the low force rating isn't necessarily reflected, um, [ laughs] in, I don't know, reality and practical terms, at least for me.
Erez
07m 12s
I hear. We should probably interview Kailh and ask them about that. [laughs]
I hear. We should probably interview Kailh and ask them about that. [laughs]
Tisha
07m 14s
[laughs] Right, yeah.
[laughs] Right, yeah.
Erez
07m 14s
Which is the right number? I'll, I, I might do that.
Which is the right number? I'll, I, I might do that.
Tisha
07m 16s
Right. And also, you know, these things feel, feel differently to everyone. I think that some people do find that they feel lighter than, for instance, a Cherry MX Brown. People's experiences of this switch might be more varied than some other switches-
Right. And also, you know, these things feel, feel differently to everyone. I think that some people do find that they feel lighter than, for instance, a Cherry MX Brown. People's experiences of this switch might be more varied than some other switches-
Erez
07m 25s
Hm.
Hm.
Tisha
07m 26s
I think. I'm not sure why, but that's my sort of vague impression from what I've heard people say about this switch.
I think. I'm not sure why, but that's my sort of vague impression from what I've heard people say about this switch.
Erez
07m 30s
Got it. Would you say it's relatively popular or is it...
Got it. Would you say it's relatively popular or is it...
Tisha
07m 34s
Moderately so, yeah.
Moderately so, yeah.
Erez
07m 35s
Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Tisha
07m 35s
It's not a big biggie like, you know, Cherry MX Brown is a, is a big one.
It's not a big biggie like, you know, Cherry MX Brown is a, is a big one.
Erez
07m 39s
Oh, yeah.
Oh, yeah.
Tisha
07m 39s
And, you know, Kailh Silver is a pretty big one, too.
And, you know, Kailh Silver is a pretty big one, too.
Erez
07m 40s
Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Tisha
07m 40s
And I have to say the, now that the Cherry MX Silent Red is available from Moonlander, that's become a pretty big one, too.
And I have to say the, now that the Cherry MX Silent Red is available from Moonlander, that's become a pretty big one, too.
Erez
07m 45s
Mm. Awesome. Anything else we wanna say about the Copper?
Mm. Awesome. Anything else we wanna say about the Copper?
Tisha
07m 47s
Hm. [ laughs] I don't think I can think of anything else. Yeah, it's kinda different. But, I think especially if you know you like the Speed Switch type of switch, it's something that you might wanna think about.
Hm. [ laughs] I don't think I can think of anything else. Yeah, it's kinda different. But, I think especially if you know you like the Speed Switch type of switch, it's something that you might wanna think about.
Erez
07m 55s
Awesome. Well, thank you very much.
Awesome. Well, thank you very much.
Tisha
07m 56s
Sure. Thank you.
Sure. Thank you.
Erez
07m 57s
You have a good one.
You have a good one.
Tisha
07m 58s
[laughs] You, too.
[laughs] You, too.

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