Hello, and welcome to Tisha Talk Switches. I'm Erez from ZSA and with me here today is Tisha, our resident switch expert and support lead. How are you today?

Hi, I'm doing okay. How are you?

Good. It is hot and we are recording this on a Wednesday that for some reason keeps feeling like a Monday to me. Other than that, I'm fine. [laughs].

Right. I've had a problem lately with Tuesdays where I think Tuesday is Wednesday. I don't, yeah, I don't know.

Wednesday is like a more chill day somehow. Like they say hump day and the middle of the week, but I don't know, I would take Wednesday over Monday anytime.

Well, sure. [laughs]

So, yeah. All right. So Black switches.

Yeah.

What are we going to talk about today?

Well, we carry two types of Black switches. You'll probably have seen a pattern by now. We carry a Cherry and a Kailh version. They're very similar to each other. Like, in my opinion, obviously, as I say over and over again, obviously this is kind of all in my opinion, but to me, they feel very similar to each other. They're closer even than a lot of the other Kailh-Cherry pairs.

All right. And they're linear?

Yup. They are linear and they're heavy linear switches, heavy-ish, they're not extreme.

So quite different from the Silvers?

Yes, very much so.

Yeah. I actually dug up an MX Black keyboard from my storage and I'm just typing on it with one hand, with my right hand, and with the left I'm typing on Silver. It's noticeably firmer actually.

Right. And Silver is like your every day switch, right? Yeah. That's a big difference. If you just look at the numbers, it looks like the difference might not be that big, but to your fingers, they feel a big difference.

Right. Like extrapolated over thousands and thousands of keystrokes per day, it starts making a difference.

Right. Yeah.

I guess I ask this as a Silver user, why would someone go for a heavier switch, a heavier linear switch?

Well, I think that if you already are like a heavy typer, if you kind of pound on your keyboard, then you might find it more satisfying to type on a heavier switch, something that pushes back on your fingers a little bit. And, I think anyway, that having more resistance might mean that you don't bottom out quite as hard. Might just make that impact a little softer because there's a little bit more in the way between the top of the switch and the bottom out.

Right.

If that makes sense, maybe it doesn't make sense.

So you're not as likely to mistype and you're not as likely to bottom out?

I think so, you know, obviously it depends kind of on your particular style but, if you are kind of a heavy typist and you're not prone to hand and finger fatigue so much, then you might like a heavier switch. I am a heavy, like I'm a keyboard pounder totally. I gravitate toward heavier switches. They have a real satisfying feel to me, but for typing on all day long, it can get a little tiring.

Right. I guess if we think about, you know, a typical computer user, a keyboard is really the main physical interface. It's really, for me, at least it's the main single object I touch, I guess. Like, if you look at like, maybe my bed more, right? If I sleep at night, if you look at the number of hours, but like with my hands, certainly it's like the number one thing I interact with on a daily basis, right? Just in terms of sheer number of hours.

Sure.

So the keyboard is the number one thing I touch when I work. And if I imagine an extreme example, let's say one of my keys was broken and would actuate twice or wouldn't actuate and whatever. I would probably get pretty aggravated trying to use that keyboard. I would get annoyed and I couldn't fix it or whatever, I'd be stuck with it. So I would get more and more frustrated. And I'm pretty sure this frustration would kind of leak into whatever I'm doing, whatever I'm writing, emails, Slack, whatever, right?

Mm-hmm [affirmative].

It would be felt because my environment is frustrating. A big part of my environment is frustrating. Would you say that typing on a firm switch, like where you have to literally exert more force as you're working, like type, type, type. Do you think that can make a difference in the tone of your communications or anything like that or not?

That's a really good question. So I think that there are two different relationships there, or two different aspects to that relationship. And one is maybe what you describe that having to put more effort into using a tool that you very crucially rely on, having to put more effort into using that than normal, will be frustrating and may affect the rest of your work. I mean, that makes sense. Sure, and on the other side of the coin, I think that your state of mind, your mood, sometimes even the particular task will affect how you use the tool. So, I definitely notice differences in my typing depending on, I don't know, just depending on certain things. My typing becomes noisier, both when I'm frustrated and sometimes if I'm just kind of just really into the flow. And it's kind of faster and noisier. If I'm hesitant, if I'm kind of thinking pretty intently as I'm typing then it's a little softer. If I've just got a lot of words and they're coming out quickly and easily, it's probably noisier. I'm probably typing a little more firmly. I might've mentioned this before, I don't remember, but the last office job that I had, the walls between our offices weren't the most soundproof things that you can imagine.

Right.

Also my desk was right up against a wall that I shared with the office next and the person on the other side of the wall told me that they could tell when I was annoyed because of the way that my typing sounded across the wall.

Right.

So yeah. I think both depending on the person, obviously

Yeah, I get it. I do see the appeal now. I get it because it's basically a keyboard that can take it. Right? A mechanical keyboard is a tactile and solid-feeling thing as it is when it's well-made. And so if you kind of pair that with a muscular key switch, you can really pound on it and it's fine.

Right.

It's fine. It feels like there's an appropriate amount of feedback there perhaps, versus if I do that on a laptop keyboard, or even on the Kailh Silver, right? If I just go to town on those, it is not actually satisfying because of the force curve, I guess. Because like you max out on whatever it can take very very quickly.

Right.

And so it feels kind of flat and flimsy, and doesn't give you this kind of feedback, this kind of feeling that, you know, a push back essentially, right?

Right. I think it's maybe kind of like trying to drive or ride a bicycle in, in the wrong gear.

Oh, I like that analogy. I see that.

Yeah.

I see that. Yeah. Like when, when you're going downhill and you know, it's too high of a gear, I guess, so you're just spinning.

Right.

Yeah.

Right. And you may feel like you're putting in a lot of effort but, you're not really getting anything back if that makes sense.

Yeah. Cool, so-

So yeah, if you like I guess a heavy linear switch provides a different type of feedback. I mean, I hesitate to use the word tactile feedback because I don't want to confuse this with a tactile switch. But I can't think of a better word.

Yeah. It is a form of t-, it's just not a bump, right?

Right.

Really the, the accurate thing for a tactile switch would be a bumpy switch because all switches are tactile.

Right. Exactly.

It just doesn't have a bump. Yeah.

Right. So it, it is a different type of feedback. And if that sounds appealing to you, some sort of feedback that's something that you feel, something that pushes back on your fingers a little bit, but not that discreet bump. Then you might like a heavier tactile, as opposed to something very light, like the Kailh Silver where, you know, if you just want to feel like your fingers are, I don't know, just kind of gliding over the keyboard, like you barely have to think about typing, and you're typing, then that's Kailh Silver. Kailh Silver is, you're barely thinking about it. A Black Switch is working your fingers a bit.

Yeah. I guess another thing I will say, just from my own experience, when I am faced with, you know, a daunting task, like, I don't know, something really complicated or fiddly that I have to write or compose, then at least it's physically easy to type, you know what I mean?

Right.

My background is in writing and I still write all the copy on our website. And so I'm very familiar with the blank page syndrome, you know, where you're looking at the screen, you're like, "Okay, how do I even get started?" Right? That's something that I work through on a daily basis. And so there is this very, for me, a very real barrier to the act of starting to type. And that's why personally, I prefer a lighter switch because then at least the action itself is easy. If it was physically hard or firmer to type on, to me, it feels like it would increase that barrier again, personally for me.

Sure. Yeah. It's like another thing that you have to put effort into.

Yes, exactly, exactly.

Whereas I think that I like a firmer switch because it feels, I don't know, there's something about the effort that I like, which is kind of hard to explain. It sounds very cheesy and cliche to say, it feels productive, it makes you feel productive. But yeah, I don't know, maybe there's something to the thought of, at least I feel like I'm doing something, you know what I mean?

Yeah. Yeah. And I guess another aspect here is the fatigue. Like the fatigue might not be a bug, it might be a feature. And by that, I mean I've been reading a little bit and watching Katy Bowman. I think she calls herself a biomechanist. She deals a lot with natural movement and the way that our bodies were designed to move. And, you know, if we repeatedly move them not right, then we can get chronic pain and whatever. So I've been looking at it from the aspect of ergonomics. And one of the things she says, let's say, you're sitting on the floor, it's not very comfortable, especially not after a while. Right? It gets uncomfortable, so move.

Right.

Right? Like that's, that's a feature and people have all these apps and reminders to take a break from the screen and walk away. Everybody knows it's good to take a break every now and then. And so if you do it with the right mindset, maybe typing on a firmer switch and feeling that fatigue, if you're mindful of your hands, you're like, "Oh, okay. It's time to step away." And you walk away for 10 minutes and do something else that does not involve typing. Because all too often for me, like the "break" is still in front of the screen.

Right.

Like I sit on one of those kneeling stools and sometimes I stand. And the way that I switch is when I get uncomfortable. So I'm like, "Oh, okay. Time to switch." Right? So maybe that can be a similar kind of reminder again, if you do it with the right mindset, if you look at it as a reminder, stop typing, you know, like go do something else, if you can.

Right. Yeah. That's a good point. It's you know, obviously if you already know that you have joint or connective tissue issues, then you're not going to want something that you know is going to cause more fatigue. But, if you don't then something that gives you a little reminder to, you know, okay, stop typing for a few minutes, might not be a bad idea. I think well, I can't identify with this, but for like athletes, professional or high level athletes. But also for people who, for say, musicians, or anyone who's doing something where they have to practice a thing or just do a thing for long periods of time. Even if whatever it is you're doing, you're very good at, the muscles or the parts of your body that you're using are very well toned and stuff, you still need to take a break.

Yup.

And a built-in reminder is maybe not so bad a thing.

Right. And yeah, it's interesting that you brought up athletes because I guess another thing that might happen here is as you're using a firmer switch, maybe, anecdotally, maybe your fingers actually get stronger over time and you get a better grip. And so that fatigue comes later and later. Like maybe for me, it feels super tiring right now. But if I switch over and kind of take those breaks over time intuitively as my body feels the need, it would require fewer and fewer breaks. Maybe.

Right. I would assume so but, kind of like learning to play the piano. Right? Your fingers are going to get stronger the more you do it.

Right. I mean, the analogy that I go to is running, right? I started running a couple of years ago and when I just started it was like, run walk, walk, walk, run a little bit, walk, walk, walk. And now I just, I go in the morning and I just run, right? 'Cause you can just do it. And it's not, like I'm not less comfortable now than I was before, it's just that my body changed.

Right.

So, okay. So if we dive into the details, I guess, or maybe before we do, one last question because you mentioned they are similar: Audio, what are your thoughts on how audible they are?

They are on the quieter side, I guess, of the sort of range of mechanical switches. As a linear switch, it's on the quieter side. It's not silent, like a silenced switch, like the Silent Reds. But they are quiet, kind of equivalent to like, a Red switch, a Cherry MX Red or a Kailh Box Red. I think Black switches and Red switches are pretty similar noise level wise.

Interesting when you look at this switch, but in real life, it makes sense to me that they would actually be quite different because they require such a, or they invite, I should say, such a vastly different use of force, no?

Right. Any of these, some amount, possibly a large amount will depend on how you type on them. You can type, I guess percussively on any switch and it's going to be louder. Like, a Kailh Silver switch, when I type on a Kailh Silver switch, it's still pretty loud 'cause I still, kind of pound it.

Right. But then like if you have a key that invites you to do that-

Right.

that, that gives you that pushback, I wonder if it ends up being louder. But again, it's a typing style thing, right? We can't say, "Oh, this switch is louder." It's just, well, it ends up being louder.

Right. It could be. That is something you may want to think about. Like, if I buy these Black switches, am I doing it with the expectation that I'm going to type on them pretty forcefully? In that case they're probably going to be a little louder. Or you could be thinking, I'm not that aggressive a typist, but I like that kind of springy recoil feeling that a firmer switch gives ... you're probably not going to reach the heights of loudness as someone who, who types really heavily.

Right. That makes sense. I actually have an ErgoDox EZ here with Cherry MX Black switches. I can play it for you if you'd like.

Sure, yeah.

Okay. So here's me typing softly. Right just nice and soft. I, I like that it's very smooth and it sounds kind of refined. I don't know, I don't know how to call it. It sounds like I'm typing something important and smart. And now I'm just going to pound it, and that's soft again and-.

Mm-hmm [affirmative].

There is a difference, just like holding the keyboard, I feel like there is a difference, but it's not a tremendous difference. I can see why you say they're quiet. Even when I'm pounding the switches, they seem pretty sedate, pretty laid back.

Right. If you did that same test with a tactile switch, there's just, there's going to be more, more sound.

Yeah, that makes sense to me.

Yeah.

Cool. So then if we want to dive into particulars here, even though they're similar, MX Black versus Kailh Box Black, do we want to talk about the differences here or?

Sure. I mean, the biggest difference, the most obvious difference is that the Cherry MX Black is not RGB compatible. So, not available for the Moonlander or the ErgoDox EZ Glow or Planck EZ Glow because it blocks the backlighting. Kailh Box Black is RGB compatible, so works with backlighting.

And has a box.

And has the box stem, right?

Yup.

Yup. That is by far and away, to me, the biggest difference. Otherwise they feel very similar. They're both quite smooth feeling. They feel springy to me, you know. You could feel like, oh, I'm typing on something that has a spring inside. It's kind of bouncy. You press it down and it bounces back.

Right. One of my concerns with springy switches like that is, you know, springy and pingy feel close. I mean, do we ever hear from people saying, "Oh, these switches ping when you let go?"

You know, not, I would say we don't hear that about the Black switches. I think that it's more common for tactile switches to be pingy.

Oh, maybe it's something to do with a bump, like-

Right.

going past the bump on the, on the upstroke or something, I don't know.

Right. I mean, I don't know either, but yeah, maybe because I do think that, and this is just completely anecdotal. I think it's also a factor that tactile switches are quite popular. Not that linear aren't, but I feel like more of our customers probably have tactile switches than linear.

So we just hear, hear more good and bad about them just 'cause more people use them.

Right. So like, I don't have "data"-

Yeah, makes sense

about it. But just in my own experience, just playing around with switches, Black switches don't seem inclined to pinginess.

Like, okay, what I'm doing right now is I'm pressing it and then I'm sliding my finger off, which is really the way to make it ping, I think. Right?

Right, yeah.

Like, kind of on the side, you can like press it on the side and then slide the finger off. Nope, not even on the long keys. Yeah, no, not, not pingy at all, actually. Wow, that's cool, that's a plus.

Yeah. I don't know why. I don't really know why that's different, but yeah, it seems to be different. So yeah, you've got the springiness, this kind of springy feeling. When it comes down to really subtle differences, the Kailh Box Black may feel just the tiniest bit smoother and super tiny bit firmer than Cherry MX Black. But both of these differences are really small. Like I have to have the two switches comparing side by side and really carefully. Like these are not, natural typing tests, this is a very artificial, you know, press, press, press, press, press, press, test.

Right, right.

So there are differences obviously because they're not the same switch, but the differences are very small.

Especially when it comes to the firmness, I guess something to keep in mind is that switches do get broken in just like shoes, right? Like when you take a switch out of the box and it's firm, six months in, it will feel different after you've typed millions of words on it, right?

Right. Yeah, totally. May sound a bit different too 'cause the springs get some wear on them. Yeah.

Awesome. Anything else you want to say about these switches?

No, I don't think so. It's a nice switch. If I were a linear switch user, it's something that I would probably gravitate toward, but, it's tactile for me all the way.

[laughs]. I hear. I hear. Awesome. Well, thank you so much.

Sure, thank you.

See you the next one.

Yeah. Bye-bye.

Bye.